Raw Elite Total?

[quote]skizac wrote:
TheBodyGuard wrote:
I think your sense of proportion is way way way off. First of all a 700lb pull is a big pull and not many have eclipsed it at 242 whether gearedand untested or not. Next, how many raw legal 700lb squats have you seen at 242? Go to plusa top lifts at that weight and see if you can support your case. I doubt it. And I’d wager all the top 50 lifts are geared and a majority untested. Gear and drugs have so perverted powerlifting that you could actually feign a sneeze at a 1600 raw total. I’m not looking for a gear or drug debate but I stronly disagree with you. There’s a legion of 800lb squatters or better that can’t manage a 700 raw squat and don’t even get me started on the bench press!

I think your sense of what the human body is capable of is off. I put together a 1745 total at 242 without even training specifically for powerlifting or going through a peaking cycle, and I don’t consider myself particularly gifted compared to what I’ve seen others do. 1607 feels like a joke, while 1857 seems entirely within my reach.

I think the reason you’re not seeing many 700 lb. raw squats and deadlifts is because most powerlifters don’t compete raw.[/quote]

oookay. Here’s a suggestion for you - DO IT RAW and report back. Me thinks you underestimate what you get from your gear. Anyway, your opinion, like mine, is worthless - consult with the top 100 lifts and report back on all those 700lb deadlifts for 242. I pick the deadlift because it’s the least likely to be influenced by gear - and even then, it’s not adjusted for drug free. I don’t think you can make your case by the numbers - cold hard facts. All the “elite” totals thrown around from various feds over time have been corrupted by drugs and gear, over time. And yes, I am perfectly in tune with what the human body can do. But that’s not really the discussion. The discussion is what is an elite RAW total. Ever wonder why these guys don’t compete RAW? I’ll tell you why; 500lb benches become 400lb or less. 750lb squats become 550lb squats. That’s why. I’ve squatted X of 700lbs and I honestly can’t say I could have squatted 600 RAW then. I don’t think I’m the exception.

[quote]Ruggerlife wrote:

TheBodyGuard wrote:
I think your sense of proportion is way way way off. First of all a 700lb pull is a big pull and not many have eclipsed it at 242 whether gearedand untested or not. Next, how many raw legal 700lb squats have you seen at 242? Go to plusa top lifts at that weight and see if you can support your case. I doubt it. And I’d wager all the top 50 lifts are geared and a majority untested. Gear and drugs have so perverted powerlifting that you could actually feign a sneeze at a 1600 raw total. I’m not looking for a gear or drug debate but I stronly disagree with you. There’s a legion of 800lb squatters or better that can’t manage a 700 raw squat and don’t even get me started on the bench press!

skizac wrote:
I think your sense of what the human body is capable of is off. I put together a 1745 total at 242 without even training specifically for powerlifting or going through a peaking cycle, and I don’t consider myself particularly gifted compared to what I’ve seen others do. 1607 feels like a joke, while 1857 seems entirely within my reach.

I think the reason you’re not seeing many 700 lb. raw squats and deadlifts is because most powerlifters don’t compete raw.

I’m in agreement with skizac. The point of the high standards is to limit the number of people that hit Elite to ONLY a handful each year. For example, take a look at the WPC Worlds recently in Russia, there were some insane totals (granted I don’t know if knee wraps were allowed or not).

Also, the RUM chart is for untested, so tested would be something lower.

Myself, I fit in the RUM chart right were I should,… near the bottom.[/quote]

WRONG. Elite signifies the top 1%. They used to use a mathematical formula to come up with it. What you or I, or skizac “thinks” is irrelevant. Make your case with the #'s. Cull all the RAW #'s and make your case. Hell, cull the PLUSA top 50 for the deadlift and try to make your case. I challenge you.

[quote]Ruggerlife wrote:
My last post hasn’t shown up yet, but just to clarify the WPC Worlds did not use knee wraps.

Here’s a few videos. The WPC is untested (AWPC is the tested counterpart). Watch Willy Albert’s video, he’s a 182lbs lifter, he did total Elite here according to the RUM classification, and it was only good enough for second.

http://www.powerliftingwatch.com/node/12712[/quote]

I’m not quite interested in “untested” but thanks anyway. I still say that the lower numbers are closer to ELITE for a tested RAW lifter.

[quote]

They’re supposed to be high. That’s what elite means. [/quote]

^^ LIKE! ^^

Wouldn’t be very fun if everyone could be “Elite”…

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
skizac wrote:
TheBodyGuard wrote:
I think your sense of proportion is way way way off. First of all a 700lb pull is a big pull and not many have eclipsed it at 242 whether gearedand untested or not. Next, how many raw legal 700lb squats have you seen at 242? Go to plusa top lifts at that weight and see if you can support your case. I doubt it. And I’d wager all the top 50 lifts are geared and a majority untested. Gear and drugs have so perverted powerlifting that you could actually feign a sneeze at a 1600 raw total. I’m not looking for a gear or drug debate but I stronly disagree with you. There’s a legion of 800lb squatters or better that can’t manage a 700 raw squat and don’t even get me started on the bench press!

I think your sense of what the human body is capable of is off. I put together a 1745 total at 242 without even training specifically for powerlifting or going through a peaking cycle, and I don’t consider myself particularly gifted compared to what I’ve seen others do. 1607 feels like a joke, while 1857 seems entirely within my reach.

I think the reason you’re not seeing many 700 lb. raw squats and deadlifts is because most powerlifters don’t compete raw.

oookay. Here’s a suggestion for you - DO IT RAW and report back. Me thinks you underestimate what you get from your gear. Anyway, your opinion, like mine, is worthless - consult with the top 100 lifts and report back on all those 700lb deadlifts for 242. I pick the deadlift because it’s the least likely to be influenced by gear - and even then, it’s not adjusted for drug free. I don’t think you can make your case by the numbers - cold hard facts. All the “elite” totals thrown around from various feds over time have been corrupted by drugs and gear, over time. And yes, I am perfectly in tune with what the human body can do. But that’s not really the discussion. The discussion is what is an elite RAW total. Ever wonder why these guys don’t compete RAW? I’ll tell you why; 500lb benches become 400lb or less. 750lb squats become 550lb squats. That’s why. I’ve squatted X of 700lbs and I honestly can’t say I could have squatted 600 RAW then. I don’t think I’m the exception.

[/quote]

What is wrong with your reading comprehension? I have been talking about nothing but raw lifting this entire thread. ALL OF MY LIFTS ARE DONE RAW.

[quote]skizac wrote:
TheBodyGuard wrote:
skizac wrote:
TheBodyGuard wrote:
I think your sense of proportion is way way way off. First of all a 700lb pull is a big pull and not many have eclipsed it at 242 whether gearedand untested or not. Next, how many raw legal 700lb squats have you seen at 242? Go to plusa top lifts at that weight and see if you can support your case. I doubt it. And I’d wager all the top 50 lifts are geared and a majority untested. Gear and drugs have so perverted powerlifting that you could actually feign a sneeze at a 1600 raw total. I’m not looking for a gear or drug debate but I stronly disagree with you. There’s a legion of 800lb squatters or better that can’t manage a 700 raw squat and don’t even get me started on the bench press!

I think your sense of what the human body is capable of is off. I put together a 1745 total at 242 without even training specifically for powerlifting or going through a peaking cycle, and I don’t consider myself particularly gifted compared to what I’ve seen others do. 1607 feels like a joke, while 1857 seems entirely within my reach.

I think the reason you’re not seeing many 700 lb. raw squats and deadlifts is because most powerlifters don’t compete raw.

oookay. Here’s a suggestion for you - DO IT RAW and report back. Me thinks you underestimate what you get from your gear. Anyway, your opinion, like mine, is worthless - consult with the top 100 lifts and report back on all those 700lb deadlifts for 242. I pick the deadlift because it’s the least likely to be influenced by gear - and even then, it’s not adjusted for drug free. I don’t think you can make your case by the numbers - cold hard facts. All the “elite” totals thrown around from various feds over time have been corrupted by drugs and gear, over time. And yes, I am perfectly in tune with what the human body can do. But that’s not really the discussion. The discussion is what is an elite RAW total. Ever wonder why these guys don’t compete RAW? I’ll tell you why; 500lb benches become 400lb or less. 750lb squats become 550lb squats. That’s why. I’ve squatted X of 700lbs and I honestly can’t say I could have squatted 600 RAW then. I don’t think I’m the exception.

What is wrong with your reading comprehension? I have been talking about nothing but raw lifting this entire thread. ALL OF MY LIFTS ARE DONE RAW![/quote]

My reading comprehension is fine. How do you rate your writing skills? Please point out where in your post you qualified your total as RAW? Or was I to assume?

Anyway, I don’t know if it’s a bit of false modesty on your part, but that total does make you a bit “gifted”. Of course, you’re silent on the tested part and I don’t really care one way or another…we all deserve our privacy. Notwithstanding your opinion and what “you’ve seen”, the MEET RESULTS don’t back it up. I say the lower numbers are more accurate for a lifetime drug free RAW lifter and I think meet results support that.

And, like I’ve pretty much said before (and it happens to be my personal beef with powerlifting in general), given the number of feds, tested/untested, rules, type of gear permitted, etc., there are too many variables to qualify ANY lift except WITHIN THAT FED. THERE ARE TOO MANY VARIABLES and therefore, I don’t think the OP will ever get a real answer to the question that I myself was wondering probably 10 years ago! In contrast, our closest “cousin”, oly weight lifting - how many variables exist to qualify one athlete from another? NONE. I’m a bit off on a tangent/rant here I understand, but it does pertain to OP.

What I have learned long ago is that powerlifting is a solitary sport where you compete against yourself. Anyway, very nice total. What were the individual lift results for that total?

[quote]skizac wrote:

What is wrong with your reading comprehension? I have been talking about nothing but raw lifting this entire thread. ALL OF MY LIFTS ARE DONE RAW.[/quote]

If you’ve done 1745 raw at 242, I would like to make the argument you’re elite.

So I was looking at the RAW class standards…I’m not a powerlifter by any means and I’ve never truly maxed on any of the 3 major lifts. I would be in the 181 wt. class (175 lb actual) and I think within a month or 2 I could pretty easily get up to class 2. So my question is what do the other classes really mean besides ELITE?

It seems the numbers are low if someone with no powerlifting experience can jump to class 2 with little work/experience.

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
My reading comprehension is fine. How do you rate your writing skills? Please point out where in your post you qualified your total as RAW? Or was I to assume?
[/quote]

You’re right, I wasn’t explicit about lifting raw. Within the context of comparing my lifts to the raw elite classifications, I thought it was clear.

I know I’m strong, but I don’t think I’m a freak 242er like Kirk Karwoski or Larry Pacifico. I work very hard for the gains that I make.

I agree. I support the current movement towards raw lifting and efforts at consolidation like the Raw Unity Meet.

I will say that I think you might be overemphasizing the importance of drug testing. I can’t cite statistics for obvious reasons, but based on my experiences and conversations with other lifters and coaches, I doubt very many of the top drug-tested athletes in the world are competing without use of some kind of banned substance. Especially athletes that compete in sports where strength and power are important factors.

Thanks. It was 655/415/675, but I did it in my gym, so take that with an appropriate amount of skepticism. I was training for bodybuilding at the time. However, I’m doing the Raw Unity Meet in January and plan to beat all of those numbers.

[quote]skizac wrote:
TheBodyGuard wrote:
My reading comprehension is fine. How do you rate your writing skills? Please point out where in your post you qualified your total as RAW? Or was I to assume?

You’re right, I wasn’t explicit about lifting raw. Within the context of comparing my lifts to the raw elite classifications, I thought it was clear.

Anyway, I don’t know if it’s a bit of false modesty on your part, but that total does make you a bit “gifted”.

I know I’m strong, but I don’t think I’m a freak 242er like Kirk Karwoski or Larry Pacifico. I work very hard for the gains that I make.

And, like I’ve pretty much said before (and it happens to be my personal beef with powerlifting in general), given the number of feds, tested/untested, rules, type of gear permitted, etc., there are too many variables to qualify ANY lift except WITHIN THAT FED. THERE ARE TOO MANY VARIABLES and therefore, I don’t think the OP will ever get a real answer to the question that I myself was wondering probably 10 years ago! In contrast, our closest “cousin”, oly weight lifting - how many variables exist to qualify one athlete from another? NONE. I’m a bit off on a tangent/rant here I understand, but it does pertain to OP.

I agree. I support the current movement towards raw lifting and efforts at consolidation like the Raw Unity Meet.

I will say that I think you might be overemphasizing the importance of drug testing. I can’t cite statistics for obvious reasons, but based on my experiences and conversations with other lifters and coaches, I doubt very many of the top drug-tested athletes in the world are competing without use of some kind of banned substance. Especially athletes that compete in sports where strength and power are important factors.

Anyway, very nice total. What were the individual lift results for that total?

Thanks. It was 655/415/675, but I did it in my gym, so take that with an appropriate amount of skepticism. I was training for bodybuilding at the time. However, I’m doing the Raw Unity Meet in January and plan to beat all of those numbers.[/quote]

A few responses:

No, you’re not a “freak”, but if you did those numbers clean, you are. Still, you are comparing yourself to “all time” kind of guys, and I’m not sure “elite” is defined that way. I forget the formula, but it was much more (relatively) forgiving than comparing yourself to any “all time” great - more along the lines of top 1% lifts in that weight class.

With reference to those “tested” lifters you mention, simply put, they are cheating. I really don’t have much of a response for that other than it has a lot to do with how I feel about powerlifting and my opinion that it’s a solitary sport. If you’re taking something banned and you are still considered drug free, where is the line drawn? So the conclusions I’ve come to after more than 10 years is that I can’t control inconsistency in judging, I can’t control who’s “on” or not, or who gets tested, or if they are clean or who even shows up. I can only strive to best my current total and that’s the only thing within my control. The “sport” is in shambles for this reason.

You’re not far from me. Where is the Raw Unity meet? Do you have a link? I might get out and compete or support you. I’m in NJ. Good luck with your training.

[quote]rhooper1 wrote:
So I was looking at the RAW class standards…I’m not a powerlifter by any means and I’ve never truly maxed on any of the 3 major lifts. I would be in the 181 wt. class (175 lb actual) and I think within a month or 2 I could pretty easily get up to class 2. So my question is what do the other classes really mean besides ELITE?

It seems the numbers are low if someone with no powerlifting experience can jump to class 2 with little work/experience.[/quote]

The different classes can be used for qualifying totals. For example, a federation may set its Nationals qualifying ctiteria at Master or something. Another example is a situation I’m currently in, where the federation set up an “Intermediate Championships”, basically just trying to set up a meet with lifters of similar ability to test themselves against others of similar strength. So in my it’s for lifters above Class 2 & 3, but not having a Class 1 total.

Oh yeah, and I hate you for hitting a Class 2 total so easy. :slight_smile:

[quote]Ruggerlife wrote:
rhooper1 wrote:
So I was looking at the RAW class standards…I’m not a powerlifter by any means and I’ve never truly maxed on any of the 3 major lifts. I would be in the 181 wt. class (175 lb actual) and I think within a month or 2 I could pretty easily get up to class 2. So my question is what do the other classes really mean besides ELITE?

It seems the numbers are low if someone with no powerlifting experience can jump to class 2 with little work/experience.

The different classes can be used for qualifying totals. For example, a federation may set its Nationals qualifying ctiteria at Master or something. Another example is a situation I’m currently in, where the federation set up an “Intermediate Championships”, basically just trying to set up a meet with lifters of similar ability to test themselves against others of similar strength. So in my it’s for lifters above Class 2 & 3, but not having a Class 1 total.

Oh yeah, and I hate you for hitting a Class 2 total so easy. :)[/quote]

I hit class one after about a year of training powerlifting. But I’d been lifting for years before that.

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
With reference to those “tested” lifters you mention, simply put, they are cheating. I really don’t have much of a response for that other than it has a lot to do with how I feel about powerlifting and my opinion that it’s a solitary sport. If you’re taking something banned and you are still considered drug free, where is the line drawn? So the conclusions I’ve come to after more than 10 years is that I can’t control inconsistency in judging, I can’t control who’s “on” or not, or who gets tested, or if they are clean or who even shows up. I can only strive to best my current total and that’s the only thing within my control. The “sport” is in shambles for this reason.
[/quote]
I totally agree with everything in this paragraph. I wasn’t trying to make excuses for people who cheat, but was just pointing out that the high-level results from a tested and non-tested meet are pretty much comparable, all other factors being equal.

The site is http://www.rawunitymeet.com/, but the meet is going to be held in Tampa, FL. If you’re interested in my training, I have a youtube page (http://www.youtube.com/Blenderate) and a training log over at BB.com (http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=118490371).

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

Where is the Raw Unity meet? Do you have a link? I might get out and compete or support you. I’m in NJ. Good luck with your training.

[/quote]

The RUM is in Florida. My first post has a link to its website.

I do agree with you that Elite should normally reflect ~1%. However, you also have to factor in that in that raw lifting is kind on a rebound. How many National level raw meets were there between 1980 and 2000? I don’t know myself, but considering that it’s very new for the USAPL, RUM only existed for 2-3 years, and even 100% RAW isn’t that old, I think the number will be fairly low.

If raw continues to remain popular I’d expect many more lifters to switch over from geared lifted (or compete in both) and for the totals to rise. But until the number of top level lifters increases I don’t think you can say Elite should reflect 1%.

As for a reference point for the OP outside these tables, why not take a look at the USAPL Raw Nationals Results, and the 2009 CON-CRETE Raw Arnold Sports Festival results (also USAPL). These would give you a fairly good reference for top USAPL raw lifters (although the Arnold does have some lifters from Canada). These have strict judging and are drug tested. Also check out the 100% RAW meet results and AWPC (the tested side of the WPC) if you can find them.

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
Ruggerlife wrote:
rhooper1 wrote:
So I was looking at the RAW class standards…I’m not a powerlifter by any means and I’ve never truly maxed on any of the 3 major lifts. I would be in the 181 wt. class (175 lb actual) and I think within a month or 2 I could pretty easily get up to class 2. So my question is what do the other classes really mean besides ELITE?

It seems the numbers are low if someone with no powerlifting experience can jump to class 2 with little work/experience.

The different classes can be used for qualifying totals. For example, a federation may set its Nationals qualifying ctiteria at Master or something. Another example is a situation I’m currently in, where the federation set up an “Intermediate Championships”, basically just trying to set up a meet with lifters of similar ability to test themselves against others of similar strength. So in my it’s for lifters above Class 2 & 3, but not having a Class 1 total.

Oh yeah, and I hate you for hitting a Class 2 total so easy. :slight_smile:

I hit class one after about a year of training powerlifting. But I’d been lifting for years before that.[/quote]

DD, I knew there was a reason I didn’t like you. Seriously, congratulations I remember watching your push/pull results (I believe), but wasn’t aware you did a full meet.

I’m currently still in my first year (first meet was in January) of powerlifting.

Wow, I didn’t realize I’d be opening up such a hornet’s nest when I posted this. Thanks for everyone’s input, but I have some follow-up questions:

If Elite is supposed to represent the top 1% of lifters, how does the geared Elite standard compare to the current records i.e. the PLUSA top 50? If that’s the case, shouldn’t there only be a handful of guys who are Elite, like Bolton, Vogelpohl, etc? Seems to me like there’s more Elite lifters than just a handful. Thoughts?

Also, some have made the argument even in the geared ranks tht there should be a new standard “Pro” to reflect guys like Bolton, Vogelpohl, etc. Does that mean the geared Elite is more attainable?

Stirring the pot…

[quote]ultimatethor wrote:
Wow, I didn’t realize I’d be opening up such a hornet’s nest when I posted this. Thanks for everyone’s input, but I have some follow-up questions:

If Elite is supposed to represent the top 1% of lifters, how does the geared Elite standard compare to the current records i.e. the PLUSA top 50? If that’s the case, shouldn’t there only be a handful of guys who are Elite, like Bolton, Vogelpohl, etc? Seems to me like there’s more Elite lifters than just a handful. Thoughts?

Also, some have made the argument even in the geared ranks tht there should be a new standard “Pro” to reflect guys like Bolton, Vogelpohl, etc. Does that mean the geared Elite is more attainable?

Stirring the pot…[/quote]

Well, gear, raw, drugs, ARE the hornets in the nest that is powerlifting and its very difficult to have these discussions without getting “stung” because in powerlifting, for the reasons I’ve already stated, you have to “qualify” your statements and conclusions to allow for these variables.

When you look at Elite, you are still talking a small percentage of guys compared to the whole of the class. There are thousands of lifters competing and totalling in any given class. Those that hit any standard of “elite” are still a relative handful.

There are “pro” designations - again, depending on the federation. In some feds, “pro” simply means you’re untested :slight_smile:

[quote]skizac wrote:

I totally agree with everything in this paragraph. I wasn’t trying to make excuses for people who cheat, but was just pointing out that the high-level results from a tested and non-tested meet are pretty much comparable, all other factors being equal.

The site is http://www.rawunitymeet.com/, but the meet is going to be held in Tampa, FL. If you’re interested in my training, I have a youtube page (http://www.youtube.com/Blenderate) and a training log over at BB.com (http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=118490371).
[/quote]

I’ve seen your 405x26 squat video in another thread. You’re a very gifted lifter. Good luck in January and keep us posted. You mentioned “kirk” in one vid caption. Is that THE KIRK? What gym do you train at. Seems like a decent facility.

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
I’ve seen your 405x26 squat video in another thread. You’re a very gifted lifter. Good luck in January and keep us posted. You mentioned “kirk” in one vid caption. Is that THE KIRK? What gym do you train at. Seems like a decent facility.
[/quote]
Yup, he’s THE KIRK, LOL. It occurs to me that I might be biased about what I consider to be elite since I’ve been around him. :slight_smile: This is my gym: http://www.supremesportspt.com/. Kirk doesn’t train there, but he makes an appearance now and then.

dang bro. i was just going to ask where youre at in MD, perhaps id be able to train with you some time and learn a bit. then i see that link. to think, theres a gym that not only knows what powerlifting is, but has fucking EFS racks, about an hour or so from me…DAAAAAANG. note to self: move to rockville. FML