T Nation

Rate My Workout - Overtraining?

[quote]Apoklyps wrote:
Well gee, more endurance, a strong core, and some great definition. Looks like you’re making AMAZING progress all on your own! Why are you asking for help for then?[/quote]

[quote]AdamEE wrote:
What can I change in my upper body routine to break my overhead and bench press plateau?
[/quote]

[quote]Apoklyps wrote: One thing you have to realize is that sometimes less is more. It’s not a matter of “can” you work out for an additional 1-2hrs, it’s whether working out that extra 1-2hrs is optimal for progress. I love training as much as anybody, but sometimes that extra time in the gym would be better spent on mobility, conditioning, or just getting the hell out and focusing on recovery.

Because you seem to think I know shit about 5/3/1, here’s a direct quote from Wendler’s website:

“Do not try to add more to this program â?? this is the biggest mistake people make with the BBB. They think they need to do more. If you feel you fall into this category then you are clearly not working hard enough on the 5/3/1 sets and/or the 5Ã??10 work.”

If you feel that the intensity of 5/3/1 BBB is too low, requiring you to add in so much extra accessory stuff, there’s always ways to make what’s written harder. Perform your 5x10 reps slower and stricter, shorten rest periods, superset the 5x10 exercises, etc. Done properly, the 5x10 is extremely taxing.[/quote]

You make solid points here, and I can see how I could vary my BBB workout to be even harder. However, I’m taking BBB to what I feel is close to my physical limit. With 1-2 minutes of rest between sets of 10, by the 4th and 5th sets my activated muscles are highly fatigued. Doing it any harder I’m sure would require me to take longer breaks between sets, and perhaps prevent me from completing all the reps in each set.

[quote]AdamEE wrote:
Thank you! Educated responses are greatly appreciated!
[/quote]

[quote]

[quote]KingKai25 wrote:
Can you bench over 400 lb? Even 300? How about 250? I can, and I can tell you that the stronger you get, the more taxing workouts become; the fact that you can spend another 1-2 hours in the gym each day is simply a testament to your low level of strength.[/quote]
My one rep maxes are: Overhead press ~150lbs, Deadlift ~350, Bench press ~255, Squat ~325. Do you think that’s a low level of strength considering I weigh 175 lbs and have only been lifting for a little over a year?[/quote]

To be clear, I’m not calling you weak, especially for the amount of time you’ve been lifting. You’ve made excellent progress and you deserve respect. You are not weak. But compared to powerlifters in your own weight class, you are still a relative beginner. And contrary to a common assumption, additional body weight only makes so much difference in one’s performance level - a 455 lb. bench press is difficult to achieve regardless of whether you are 175 or 275 lb… In other words, you are not weak; you are just not as strong as you are capable of being yet.

[quote]

Kingkai you were much nicer than I would have been with him posting as a complete know-it-all.

[quote]Aragorn wrote:
Kingkai you were much nicer than I would have been with him posting as a complete know-it-all.
[/quote]

Because I concisely refuted unfounded claims such as

[quote]Chris Colucci wrote:
you’re absolutley not doing anything close to Wendler’s 5/3/1[/quote]

by simply pointing out what was right in front of them, that makes me a know-it-all?

Are you surprised that I became defensive after the flurry of hasty, uneducated, and unhelpful posts were directed at me? At least unlike some of you, I’m not the kind of person to get up here and waste my time insulting people that I don’t know. Or worse, to talk about a program like I “know-it-all” when in fact I haven’t completed one cycle (Apok).

Just to wrap this up, my initial thoughts were CONFIRMED that I have been doing too much in a single workout. I had forgotten that Wendler recommends not to do too much assistance work with his program and that may be why I have reached a sticking point on my upper body lifts. I’m going to correct this by returning to the barebones BBB template + interval training, and save all those fun extras to do on a couple of my off days (probably wed, sat).

Thanks again to the helpful posters!

OP,
It’s weird, I read most if not all the posters giving you the same advice… Only the tone was different. Also, the guys you are calling uneducated have accomplished a lot more than you have.

For what it’s worth, I thought your tone was a little know it all too…maybe I was reading you wrong? Anyway, good job on what you have accomplished so far and let us know if we can help. Your plan looks like its going in the right direction. Post the details and people here will probably help you to tweak it or suggest another one that will help you to achieve your goals.

My 2 cents. Good luck.

[quote]AdamEE wrote:
Because I concisely refuted unfounded claims such as

[quote]Chris Colucci wrote:
you’re absolutley not doing anything close to Wendler’s 5/3/1[/quote]
by simply pointing out what was right in front of them, that makes me a know-it-all?[/quote]
Bud, you didn’t “concisely refute” jack shit.

Like I said, your training sessions are: Some lifting, then a long break for foam rolling, then some cardio and abs, then some lifting, then some more cardio, more abs and a little more lifting.

And, to repeat what I said: That is not anything remotely close to Wendler’s 5/3/1 program. If you can’t see that, then your ignorance and stubbornness will 100% cause you to stall out again soon enough.

P.S. - I’m glad to see all that advice I gave you a few months back really sunk in. You’re welcome.

You’ve made some progress, but you’ve gone right back into thinking that doing more in each workout means more results. It doesn’t. Get your head straight, get that chip off your shoulder and drop the attitude right-quick, listen to people who are more experienced than you, and you might be able to see the solution to your problems.

[quote]AdamEE wrote:

I guess having more endurance, a strong core, and gaining some great definition is pointless.

I wonder how many of you can do a 5/3/1 workout and then continue to work out for an additional 1-2 hours each day, four times a week for months on end.
[/quote]

It’s a little ironic that you’re saying that directly in response to a college rugby player.

The basic point is, you’re doing the “jack of all trades, master of none” thing. But I think you’ve seen that now, if I understood your last post correctly.

Instead of trying to focus on them all at the same time, you’d be better off doing something like focusing on strength for a month or three, then focusing on hypertrophy for a month or three, then focusing on endurance, etc. Repeat when you feel it’s time.

What you’re trying to do is great, but the approach you’re taking is somewhat sub-par.

I think where you made a mistake was in mentioning “5/3/1” in the first place. If you’d just said “this is what I’m doing, am I doing it wrong?” things would have turned out better.

[quote]Chris Colucci wrote:

Like I said, your training sessions are: Some lifting, then a long break for foam rolling, then some cardio and abs, then some lifting, then some more cardio, more abs and a little more lifting.[/quote]

So, you are saying that you consider the word-for-word BBB workout to be “some lifting” made so by the fact that I am doing more afterwards?

You should really clear that up, because it’s insulting for you to assume since I’m not being hauled off in a wheelchair after the BBB workout, that I am not doing anything remotely close to it.

[quote]LoRez wrote:
I think where you made a mistake was in mentioning “5/3/1” in the first place. If you’d just said “this is what I’m doing, am I doing it wrong?” things would have turned out better.[/quote]

I would have to agree with this, only because it seems as though if I’m doing anything in addition to the prescribed BBB workout, then I must not be doing it all, not even remotely close.

[quote]AdamEE wrote:
Or worse, to talk about a program like I “know-it-all” when in fact I haven’t completed one cycle (Apok).

Just to wrap this up, my initial thoughts were CONFIRMED that I have been doing too much in a single workout. I had forgotten that Wendler recommends not to do too much assistance work with his program and that may be why I have reached a sticking point on my upper body lifts. I’m going to correct this by returning to the barebones BBB template + interval training, and save all those fun extras to do on a couple of my off days (probably wed, sat).

Thanks again to the helpful posters! [/quote]

Great, congrats on being a complete douche and then proceeding to follow the advice given and claim it really was your initial thoughts. Reminds me of a certain poster.

I may not have completed as many cycles of 5/3/1 as you, but number of cycles is irrelevant to knowledge. If you understood anything of the philosophy of the program, setting up such an asinine program would not have even crossed your mind.

It’s actually rather amusing from my perspective to see that you’re labeling posters as “helpful” or “uneducated” based on whether they tell you what you want to hear or not. Word to the wise: drop the fucking ego and listen to those who tell you what you don’t want to hear and learn from it. You’ll make way better progress that way.

And lastly, that deadlift is weaksauce. If I were you, I’d be more concerned with bringing that up.

[quote]AdamEE wrote:

[quote]Chris Colucci wrote:
Like I said, your training sessions are: Some lifting, then a long break for foam rolling, then some cardio and abs, then some lifting, then some more cardio, more abs and a little more lifting.[/quote]
So, you are saying that you consider the word-for-word BBB workout to be “some lifting” made so by the fact that I am doing more afterwards?

You should really clear that up, because it’s insulting for you to assume since I’m not being hauled off in a wheelchair after the BBB workout, that I am not doing anything remotely close to it. [/quote]
Your Monday workout: 5/3/1 main lift and one accessory (13 sets total) plus 25 sets of lifting plus other ab work plus a total of 1 mile of interval sprints.

Your Tuesday workout: 5/3/1 main lift and one accessory (13 sets total) plus 11 sets of lifting plus other ab work plus a total of 25 minutes cardio plus a total of 1 mile of interval sprints.

Your Thursday workout: 5/3/1 main lift and one accessory (13 sets total) plus 34 sets of lifting plus other ab work plus a total of 1 mile of interval sprints.

Your Friday workout: 5/3/1 main lift and one accessory (13 sets total) plus 18 sets of other lifting plus a total of 20 minutes of cardio plus a total of 1 mile of interval sprints.

You’ve put mayonnaise, bacon, lettuce, tomato, and dog feces on bread, but you’re calling it a BLT. I’m calling it a shit sandwich. Excuse me for focusing on the bigger picture of what’s being presented.

[quote]Chris Colucci wrote:

You’ve put mayonnaise, bacon, lettuce, tomato, and dog feces on bread, but you’re calling it a BLT. I’m calling it a shit sandwich. Excuse me for focusing on the bigger picture of what’s being presented.[/quote]
Chris why are you wasting your time ? Obvious the OP after one year is a expert. By the way keep up the good work that you have been doing on this side of the forum.

[quote]Apoklyps wrote:
Great, congrats on being a complete douche and then proceeding to follow the advice given and claim it really was your initial thoughts. Reminds me of a certain poster.[/quote]

[quote]AdamEE wrote:
Do you think I’m overdoing it? [/quote]

[quote]AdamEE wrote:
Just to wrap this up, my initial thoughts were CONFIRMED that I have been doing too much in a single workout. [/quote]

And the title says “Overtraining?”

[quote]
I may not have completed as many cycles of 5/3/1 as you, but number of cycles is irrelevant to knowledge. If you understood anything of the philosophy of the program, setting up such an asinine program would not have even crossed your mind.[/quote]

Maybe when you have completed a few cycles, you will start to feel like you can do even more afterwards. Wendler has a great guide. You should read the section titled “Moving North of Vag” in which Wendler talks about how a friend of his had great success using his own template:

[quote]

  1. Warm up: foam rolling, static stretching and jumping rope( or something similar).
  2. Lift Weights: 5/3/1; keep it basic and strong
  3. Condition: Run hills, push prowler.
    That’s it. Do this 3/4 times a week and you won’t fall into the trap of being normal. You’ll be strong, healthy and in in shape."[/quote]

Now just take a second and think about it, use a little reading comprehension. Does that seem so far flung from what I was trying to do?

[quote]
It’s actually rather amusing from my perspective to see that you’re labeling posters as “helpful” or “uneducated” based on whether they tell you what you want to hear or not.[/quote]

Try again. I never labeled posters as “uneducated,” though that might be a fitting term for you. I said that their RESPONSES were uneducated, meaning they didn’t pay attention to the available information before blurting out the first thing that came to mind when they saw that the BBB workout was only a part of what I have been doing recently.

This whole post was about trying to see if I was doing too much and to learn some new ways to improve my upper body strength. I learned that most everyone here agrees that I am doing too much in addition to the BBB template. There was some great advice, though most of it was given in a backhanded manner. I’m taking it to heart and adjusting accordingly.

[quote]
And lastly, that deadlift is weaksauce. If I were you, I’d be more concerned with bringing that up.[/quote]

Your posts are getting (if possible) less and less constructive and more designed to soothe YOUR wounded ego. Do you honestly think I care how you feel about my deadlift?

[quote]Apoklyps wrote:
If you follow the program correctly, you will not want to do so much random accessory work afterwords, trust me. [/quote]

That was an uneducated response.

Trust you? While you haven’t completed your first cycle? How could you possibly know what I should feel like after 5/3/1?

[quote]Chris Colucci wrote:
You’ve put mayonnaise, bacon, lettuce, tomato, and dog feces on bread, but you’re calling it a BLT.[/quote]

Well, I’m glad to see that you are starting to understand the situation.

You’ve gone from “not doing anything close” to being one ingredient off from a very tasty sandwich.

I have to know, which parts are which? Or was your analogy as inaccurate as your initial assumption? You did make some good points, sure. But for you to sit there and tell me I haven’t been doing 5/3/1 is ridiculous. You’ve even started to disagree with yourself:

[quote]Chris Colucci wrote:
you’re absolutley not doing anything close to Wendler’s 5/3/1.[/quote]

[quote]Chris Colucci wrote:

Your Monday workout: 5/3/1 main lift and one accessory
Your Tuesday workout: 5/3/1 main lift and one accessory
Your Thursday workout: 5/3/1 main lift and one accessory
Your Friday workout: 5/3/1 main lift and one accessory [/quote]

So which is it? It’s a shame I have to do this, but let me show you again:

Now, do you see a resemblance? Are you starting to see it?

The fact that I’ve been adding more and more after 5/3/1 doesn’t negate the fact that I am still strictly following that workout template. YES, APPARENTLY IT WAS TOO MUCH EXTRA SHIT. Excuse me for trying to kick some ass. But don’t try and tell me I’m not doing 5/3/1.

[quote]AdamEE wrote:

My one rep maxes are: Overhead press ~150lbs, Deadlift ~350, Bench press ~255, Squat ~325. Do you think that’s a low level of strength considering I weigh 175 lbs and have only been lifting for a little over a year?

[/quote]
Congratulations… your over all numbers are slightly more then what my son who just turned 15 did in a sanctioned Meet at 154 lbs with just a little over 4 month of consistent lifting under his belt. So i can see why you can be so brash online in the beginners forum. Obviously your knowledge and experience far exceeds anyone else on these forums and that they should be ashamed to have said anything negative in regards to your ground braking routine. I apologize for those who on here that don’t see your genius.

[quote]bulldog9899 wrote:

[quote]AdamEE wrote:

My one rep maxes are: Overhead press ~150lbs, Deadlift ~350, Bench press ~255, Squat ~325. Do you think that’s a low level of strength considering I weigh 175 lbs and have only been lifting for a little over a year?

[/quote]
Congratulations… your over all numbers are slightly more then what my son who just turned 15 did in a sanctioned Meet at 154 lbs with just a little over 4 month of consistent lifting under his belt. So i can see why you can be so brash online in the beginners forum. Obviously your knowledge and experience far exceeds anyone else on these forums and that they should be ashamed to have said anything negative in regards to your ground braking routine. I apologize for those who on here that don’t see your genius.[/quote]

My 50 year old MD client has him beat on deadlift and bench…and overhead press, and tied on squat (but olympic style). And weighs 25 lbs less than he does (that’s right, 150 lb, weighed in Sunday).

So yes, I would say that is a low level of strength for a guy in his 20s that wants to be telling people much stronger and more experienced than him that they don’t know what they are talking about.

I really try not to do this, and I don’t mean to sound full of myself, but I’m done investing time and energy into helping you. I gave you advice four months ago, but it was pointless because you’re back with the same central problem.

You’re either flat-out trolling or you’re so dense that you’re not ready to be helped yet.

Best of luck in reaching your goals. If you start new threads with questions, I’ll be avoiding them.

[quote]bulldog9899 wrote:
Chris why are you wasting your time ? Obvious the OP after one year is a expert. By the way keep up the good work that you have been doing on this side of the forum.[/quote]

You two should get a room. Never claimed to be expert at anything. Never boasted either, yet you write:

[quote]bulldog9899 wrote:
Congratulations… your over all numbers are slightly more then what my son who just turned 15 did in a sanctioned Meet at 154 lbs with just a little over 4 month of consistent lifting under his belt. So i can see why you can be so brash online in the beginners forum. Obviously your knowledge and experience far exceeds anyone else on these forums and that they should be ashamed to have said anything negative in regards to your ground braking routine. I apologize for those who on here that don’t see your genius.[/quote]

Which hardly even deserves a response. Just because I’m not going to let people talk down to me without a leveled response, doesn’t mean I’m being brash. I didn’t start the shit flinging here, but I’m no one’s brow-beaten bitch to sit here and let you say whatever you want without hearing my thoughts.

Where did I hint that I have a groundbreaking routine? To reiterate again for those with poor reading comprehension skills, the entire point of this post was because I was concerned that I may be doing too much. That turned out to be the case, and I didn’t need to hear any insults to understand that.

If anyone were to read your posts without knowing you, they might say you were a teenager. You’re 41. You have nothing constructive to offer, you are just stroking your buddy’s ego and trying to sound like some badass grandfather figure.

[quote]AdamEE wrote:

Maybe when you have completed a few cycles, you will start to feel like you can do even more afterwards. Wendler has a great guide. You should read the section titled “Moving North of Vag” in which Wendler talks about how a friend of his had great success using his own template:

  1. Warm up: foam rolling, static stretching and jumping rope( or something similar).
  2. Lift Weights: 5/3/1; keep it basic and strong
  3. Condition: Run hills, push prowler.
    That’s it. Do this 3/4 times a week and you won’t fall into the trap of being normal. You’ll be strong, healthy and in in shape."

Now just take a second and think about it, use a little reading comprehension. Does that seem so far flung from what I was trying to do?
[/quote]

No. It doesn’t. Here is what you are doing:

  1. lift
  2. foam roll
  3. sprint
  4. abs
  5. lift
  6. sprint
  7. lift

You’re not even doing things in the right order. Put foam rolling first for crying out loud, it’s a damn warm-up.

You are not doing 5/3/1. Sorry if you don’t want to hear it. You started your post by saying ’ I am doing 5/3/1 + adding some other conditioning’. That is not what the above is. Wendler’s outline is what ‘5/3/1 + conditioning’ looks like. It says ‘push prowler’. It doesn’t say 'do a mile of sprints + P90x ab work for hawt abz + lift whatever you feel like. You have bastardized the program too much to call it 5/3/1. This is akin to taking a 426 Hemi out of a 1966 Dodge Charger and replacing it with a detuned Honda Civic engine from 1992, then redesigning the chassis of the Charger by cutting half its body off and pasting the rear end of a caboose on. It no longer resembles a Charger even if the paint is the same color. It doesn’t have the same engine, gearing, tuning, body, or lines. Not a fucking Charger, and you are not doing 5/3/1.

Either do 5/3/1 as written or pick a different program. Don’t create an abomination out of a good program, complain you aren’t getting results, and then call it said original program ‘+ some add-ons’. Being that you’re an expert on all things Wendler, you should have known that’s one of his biggest pet peeves: people taking his program, bastardizing it beyond recognition, and then complaining. He’s talked about it before in things I’m sure I don’t need to remind you on because you’re an expert in his writings and seminars.

You might not have liked the tone of posting that contained the advice everybody has been giving you. But you probably ought to cowboy the fuck up and instead of getting defensive asking “what did I do wrong and what should I change”.

For future reference, do a program as written. It is written that way for a reason. Then before you cut its heart out you might want to ask people if what you’re doing makes any fucking sense at all.

The answer is, “no, it doesn’t”.

[quote]Aragorn wrote:
telling people much stronger and more experienced than him that they don’t know what they are talking about.
[/quote]

Never said that they don’t know what they are talking about. Did you have another argument?

[quote]Chris Colucci wrote:
I really try not to do this, and I don’t mean to sound full of myself, but I’m done investing time and energy into helping you. I gave you advice four months ago, but it was pointless because you’re back with the same central problem.

You’re either flat-out trolling or you’re so dense that you’re not ready to be helped yet.

Best of luck in reaching your goals. If you start new threads with questions, I’ll be avoiding them.[/quote]

Well you do sound full of yourself, and good job dodging the argument now that you’ve talked yourself into a corner.

Not ready to be helped yet, though I’ve long since conceded that I am doing too much extra work and said that I was going to correct it.

I would say that I’ve been helped. You’re just upset that I’m not bending over for you and apologizing for defending myself. Not going to happen.

[quote]Chris Colucci wrote:
I really try not to do this, and I don’t mean to sound full of myself, but I’m done investing time and energy into helping you. I gave you advice four months ago, but it was pointless because you’re back with the same central problem.

You’re either flat-out trolling or you’re so dense that you’re not ready to be helped yet.

Best of luck in reaching your goals. If you start new threads with questions, I’ll be avoiding them.[/quote]

If it makes you feel better… I don’t think your full of yourself. From some of the stuff of yours I have seen you honestly come across as if you care about others to help them reach their goals.

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

[quote]bulldog9899 wrote:

[quote]AdamEE wrote:

My one rep maxes are: Overhead press ~150lbs, Deadlift ~350, Bench press ~255, Squat ~325. Do you think that’s a low level of strength considering I weigh 175 lbs and have only been lifting for a little over a year?

[/quote]
Congratulations… your over all numbers are slightly more then what my son who just turned 15 did in a sanctioned Meet at 154 lbs with just a little over 4 month of consistent lifting under his belt. So i can see why you can be so brash online in the beginners forum. Obviously your knowledge and experience far exceeds anyone else on these forums and that they should be ashamed to have said anything negative in regards to your ground braking routine. I apologize for those who on here that don’t see your genius.[/quote]

My 50 year old MD client has him beat on deadlift and bench…and overhead press, and tied on squat (but olympic style). And weighs 25 lbs less than he does (that’s right, 150 lb, weighed in Sunday).

So yes, I would say that is a low level of strength for a guy in his 20s that wants to be telling people much stronger and more experienced than him that they don’t know what they are talking about.

[/quote]
I think the Op is just put off that people aren’t lined up to kiss on his ass