OK,OK the real reason I started this is too feel important and have one of those long 4-5 page threads.All joking aside,the general census around here is what I refer to as a bigot is really just someone who has prejudice,but not full of hate,and a bigot and racist,while different in meaning,both can be because of hate.Got it.Now that we all had our political disscusion,I think I’m just gonna stick to the Buliding a better body and Supplements and Nutrition threads,you guys are just way too smart for me.
[quote]BigPaul wrote:
Lorisco wrote:
Racism has to do with power. If I have no power over someone I can’t be racist against them.
And here is where we encounter the problem my friends. How exactly do we determine what power is, who yields it over whom, and when?
A better question is this: is there not some power derrived from asserting that one is a victim of racism? Or any number of things for that matter?[/quote]
There is no power in being a victim. Are victims of rape in power? The simple fact that a person would have to assert that they are a victim implies lack of power. You are saying that if I claim I am a victim of a racist act that I am now in power? That is retarded and you know it. Please do better.
Hmmmm…
Racisim would be if you were emotinally hurt by your daughter going into an inter-racial marriage.
Biggotry would be if you disowned her over it.
[quote]BigPaul wrote:
Lorisco wrote:
Racism has to do with power. If I have no power over someone I can’t be racist against them.
And here is where we encounter the problem my friends. How exactly do we determine what power is, who yields it over whom, and when?
A better question is this: is there not some power derrived from asserting that one is a victim of racism? Or any number of things for that matter?[/quote]
Well that may be a popular view,But I happen to believe that asserting racism as a means of rationalization is one reason many are holding themselves back from achievement. It is true there are and will always be racists, but thousands achieve their goals regardless. Life is not fair and never will be. Trying to use racism to gain some perceived power only gives you a victim mentality and you are the one who suffers and doesn’t achieve your goals.
So I believe institutionalized racism should be stopped at all costs, but also it is not always racism. Sometimes it is just assholes. So instead of calling racism, as if that is going to help you, call it “assholism!”
Of course, if you are the victim of a rape you do lack power. Although it can be argued that some power can be recouped in bringing the perpitrator to light.
That is true in the case that an individual is victimized.
However, if one is to claim victimhood when, in fact, they are the victim of no exploitation they do gain some power. For example, leveling a false allegation is indeed powerful, damaging and could even be seen as exploiting and making a victim of the person toward whom the allegation is directed.
Back to the issue of the mindset of victimology, if one adopts a mindset or doctrine whereby they are defined as a victim there is some power to be found there simply by virtue of the organization amongst like-minded people that will inevitably emerge.
This is the central ideal of many political and religious movements - ‘WE are being victimized because of who we ARE’ Both political persuasions claim the media are biased against them, religious groups are presently claiming that they are being victimized by judicial activists and extremist lawmakers, environmental groups are claiming to be the victims of new legislation as they may now be considered terrorists.
The power in these false claims of victimhood is prety evident to be seen. Conservatives have rallied around the ideal of liberal media victimology and now Fox News sits atop most of the primetime news ratings and a slew of conservative commentators have been brought aboard other stations’ payrolls.
Evangelical Christians have proven one of the most influential voting blocks in recent years. And environmental groups have gained the backing of a diverse group in response to their claims of victimhood.
If one were a victim no, but if one were not a victim then I would argue that you do have some power. My example would be this, two guys get into a fight at a bar and they are arested. One fellow claims (falsely) that the other made a racial slur that prompted the fight.
As in many states additional penalties are assessed for assault based upon sexual orentation or race, it can be argued that there is a power dynamic involved here and tipped in the favor of the clamant. Even if no action is taken with respect to the claimed racist/homophobic aspect of the assault for lack of supporting evidence, the accused racist/homophobe will undoubtedly spend more time being interviewed by the police than would otherwise be the case.
To get back to more the heart of your question though, I was speaking more in terms of group dynamics, not unlike what I have written above. When an ethos of victimology is heald by a group there is far more power involved.
If enough (insert a group here) believe that they (as a group) are not getting jobs as CEOs at an acceptable rate, even if the composition of new CEO hires is proportional to the composition of top business schools a few years prior, a contingent will form that seeks to correct this ‘injustice’.
Nothing is terribly wrong with that, everybody has a special interest group (or a dozen) these days. The problem arises when the members of this group adopt the mindset that they are victims for simple cause of their membership to said group. Then the case becomes ‘I didn’t get the job because I am a (insert apropriate noun here).’
Not ‘I didn’t get the job because there were better educated, more experienced, more personable, etc. applicants.’
[quote]BigPaul wrote:
That is true in the case that an individual is victimized.
However, if one is to claim victimhood when, in fact, they are the victim of no exploitation they do gain some power. For example, leveling a false allegation is indeed powerful, damaging and could even be seen as exploiting and making a victim of the person toward whom the allegation is directed.[/quote]
Your original post didn’t say anything about someone exploiting claims. It simply said that claiming to be a victim somehow grants power. Why are we talking about exploitation? You think claiming to be a victim of racism should be seen as exploitation first? If not, why bring it up in this thread? What is the purpose?
[quote]
Back to the issue of the mindset of victimology, if one adopts a mindset or doctrine whereby they are defined as a victim there is some power to be found there simply by virtue of the organization amongst like-minded people that will inevitably emerge. [/quote]
There is power in numbers. Thank God for that. It helped lead to the Civil Rights Movement.
[quote]
This is the central ideal of many political and religious movements - ‘WE are being victimized because of who we ARE’ Both political persuasions claim the media are biased against them, religious groups are presently claiming that they are being victimized by judicial activists and extremist lawmakers, environmental groups are claiming to be the victims of new legislation as they may now be considered terrorists. [/quote]
OK, and the problem is?
[quote]
The power in these false claims of victimhood is prety evident to be seen. Conservatives have rallied around the ideal of liberal media victimology and now Fox News sits atop most of the primetime news ratings and a slew of conservative commentators have been brought aboard other stations’ payrolls.[/quote]
Conservatives were never “out of power” in terms of being seen as inferior. On a social scale, relating racism to poltical bias is to compare two completely different levels of social impact. I dont think they should ever be directly compared.
[quote]
Evangelical Christians have proven one of the most influential voting blocks in recent years. And environmental groups have gained the backing of a diverse group in response to their claims of victimhood.[/quote]
True.
[quote]
If one were a victim no, but if one were not a victim then I would argue that you do have some power. My example would be this, two guys get into a fight at a bar and they are arested. One fellow claims (falsely) that the other made a racial slur that prompted the fight.
As in many states additional penalties are assessed for assault based upon sexual orentation or race, it can be argued that there is a power dynamic involved here and tipped in the favor of the clamant.
Even if no action is taken with respect to the claimed racist/homophobic aspect of the assault for lack of supporting evidence, the accused racist/homophobe will undoubtedly spend more time being interviewed by the police than would otherwise be the case.[/quote]
So, how do you plan on stopping people from using the law to their advantage without taking away the rights of those with true issues?
[quote]
To get back to more the heart of your question though, I was speaking more in terms of group dynamics, not unlike what I have written above. When an ethos of victimology is heald by a group there is far more power involved.[/quote]
Again, thank goodness.
[quote]
If enough (insert a group here) believe that they (as a group) are not getting jobs as CEOs at an acceptable rate, even if the composition of new CEO hires is proportional to the composition of top business schools a few years prior, a contingent will form that seeks to correct this ‘injustice’. [/quote]
Yay for freedom, right?
[quote]
Nothing is terribly wrong with that, everybody has a special interest group (or a dozen) these days. The problem arises when the members of this group adopt the mindset that they are victims for simple cause of their membership to said group. Then the case becomes ‘I didn’t get the job because I am a (insert apropriate noun here).’ [/quote]
What if it is true?
[quote]
Not ‘I didn’t get the job because there were better educated, more experienced, more personable, etc. applicants.’[/quote]
I agree that you should make sure your shit is in order before you wrongfully accuse someone of unethical hiring practices. You often hear the same voice from those claiming “reverse racism”, when they may simply be unqualified for the job. It is on equal sides of the fence.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
Your original post didn’t say anything about someone exploiting claims. It simply said that claiming to be a victim somehow grants power. Why are we talking about exploitation? You think claiming to be a victim of racism should be seen as exploitation first? If not, why bring it up in this thread? What is the purpose?
[/quote]
When the dynamics of power are introduced, how far of a stretch is it to talk about exploitation? In human terms is exploitation not simply the act of taking advantage of power differences? I exploit and am exploited many times in the course of a day, as is the case with most people.
If racism takes the form of discrimination then power dynamics and exploitation are involved. However, if it takes the form of a belief rather than an action that may affect one’s ability to maximize their utility, exploitation may not be involved.
There is no problem, it is simply intended to illustrate the fact that there is power to be derrived from a victimology mindset.
Again, an illustrative example of the claiming of victimhood (in this case being victimized by liberal media bias) and the corresponding power derrived when the group (here conservatives) claiming victimhood organizes. I did not intend to relate racism to political bias, only to provide an accessable illustration of the idea I was trying to convey.
I don’t, I might well be out of a job if people didn’t use the law to their advantage.
One would then truely be a victim and have a claim. The problem arrises when one defaults to victimology in response to failure. One may truely have been victimized and have a legitimate greivance, but if one defaults to claiming victimhood, how are they to determine that it was not something beyond their group membership that brought about their failing.
[quote]BigPaul wrote:
One would then truely be a victim and have a claim. The problem arrises when one defaults to victimology in response to failure. One may truely have been victimized and have a legitimate greivance, but if one defaults to claiming victimhood, how are they to determine that it was not something beyond their group membership that brought about their failing.
[/quote]
That is a learned behavior, which has been developed over the last 40-50 years. However, as more and more people in that group move away from that mentality and embrace opportunity and become successful, claiming “victonhood” will have less and less power as even people in the supposed victim group will neither relate to nor support it. So opportunity will be the death of victomhood as a means of power as it will be seen as lacking validity.
Okay, and I get blamed for being an off the cuff person who thinks too much?
Great, glad you guys have solved the problem, it looks like once again that speaking about the issue is seen as more of a problem than the problem itself.
If you haven’t noticed, we are stuck in a vicious cycle. Discrimination and racism lead people to act like things are hopeless, becuase they aren’t given a fair chance. Then, you claim these people act hopeless, and if they didn’t, everything would be great.
What we really need to fix is the underlying problem. However, in all honesty, it will take effort all around to do so.
Minorities have to realize and accept that many majority people will have nothing to do with discriminatory practices and recognize that fact, while other majority people will have to recognize that not everyone has these ethics, and that damage is being done to attitudes and individuals on a daily basis.
Allow that it does happen, and that people have a legitimate greviance, and also allow that peoples attitudes are changed by racism, and then, when at least the truth of the situation is recognized, minorities will at least feel they are believed and understood, and they won’t be forced to just give up all hope.
To deny them there existence, what they see and face in life on a regular basis, would surely be a driving factor in giving up hope. What else can you do when the world simply denies your reality and punishes you for talking about it?
[quote]vroom wrote:
That is a learned behavior, which has been developed over the last 40-50 years. However, as more and more people in that group move away from that mentality and embrace opportunity and become successful, claiming “victonhood” will have less and less power as even people in the supposed victim group will neither relate to nor support it. So opportunity will be the death of victomhood as a means of power as it will be seen as lacking validity.
Okay, and I get blamed for being an off the cuff person who thinks too much?
Great, glad you guys have solved the problem, it looks like once again that speaking about the issue is seen as more of a problem than the problem itself.
If you haven’t noticed, we are stuck in a vicious cycle. Discrimination and racism lead people to act like things are hopeless, becuase they aren’t given a fair chance. Then, you claim these people act hopeless, and if they didn’t, everything would be great.
What we really need to fix is the underlying problem. However, in all honesty, it will take effort all around to do so.
Minorities have to realize and accept that many majority people will have nothing to do with discriminatory practices and recognize that fact, while other majority people will have to recognize that not everyone has these ethics, and that damage is being done to attitudes and individuals on a daily basis.
Allow that it does happen, and that people have a legitimate greviance, and also allow that peoples attitudes are changed by racism, and then, when at least the truth of the situation is recognized, minorities will at least feel they are believed and understood, and they won’t be forced to just give up all hope.
To deny them there existence, what they see and face in life on a regular basis, would surely be a driving factor in giving up hope. What else can you do when the world simply denies your reality and punishes you for talking about it?[/quote]
Vroom, I agree with what you have stated, but you have left out one fact; there are minorities who do blame others for their own problem or lack of initiative. Not all those who cry discrimination have really been discriminated against. So this is where people of their own race need to stand up and call them on this crap and tell them that is it not racisms, it is them.
I think that other races seeing this level of honesty would then be more inclined to stand up for the right thing and put down real racism when it is seen.
rasicm and bigotry are synonymous
Well, do you agree or don’t you?
I tell you, if my parents were beaten down by discrimination, kept quiet for fear of retaliation and passed some of that along to me, I think it is forgiveable if I have the wrong impression of society.
I lived and worked in the states not too long ago. I was shocked. The phrase used was “those people”. Those people need to do something about this and that. Those people have a lot of problems to fix.
Really? WTF? If “they” happen to have remaining problems, it is because of the past and the fact that the long slow healing process is going to take some fucking time.
Name to me, really, any serious race relations initiative taken by the white majority in America. Reactions, such as when a certain women refused to give up her seat, that have ended up in change, are NOT initiatives, they are recognition and reaction when blatent mistreatment could no longer be ignored.
There once was an attempt at workplace equity, but that was both reactionary and led to calls of reverse discrimination.
Anything? Has anything ever been done? I mean, there may be some things I’m not aware of, so please, I’d be very happy to hear of them. I really would.
If some black people want to be pissed off at white people, as long as that doesn’t lead to unlawful activity, we’ve earned it. Holy shit, it is hard to fathom the level of mistreatment that took place if you go back just a generation or two.
Now, whitey cries and whines whenever a black person may complain about discrimination when it didn’t really happen. Well shit whitey, maybe you need a real problem, like being treated as property with no damned rights for generations, then live in fear of lynching, then have everyone deny racism that is still rampant.
I can’t believe the fucking things white people are bitching about. What a whiney bunch of hypocritical fucking jackasses.
Sack up. Personally, I know I’ve never been a part of what is wrong, that isn’t what I’m suggesting. But grow a sack and acknowledge that shit was done wrong, has been for generations, and it still isn’t right.
Now, because of history, we probably do have retaliatory discrimination, racism in both directions, and all kinds of bullshit.
We’ve earned it.
And, finally, for the real idiots out there, nowhere in here is an apology. I’m not apologizing for anything. I’m recognizing things, not apologizing for them.
I wonder if recognition and understanding would be enough. Perhaps a simple lack of denial would allow things to move forward?
Damned if I know, but maybe if people stopped denying reality, energy could be put into something else, like improving things, on all sides, instead of fighting about whether or not racism exists and just who is more apt to display it.
[quote]vroom wrote:
Vroom, I agree with what you have stated, but you have left out one fact; there are minorities who do blame others for their own problem or lack of initiative. Not all those who cry discrimination have really been discriminated against. So this is where people of their own race need to stand up and call them on this crap and tell them that is it not racisms, it is them.
Well, do you agree or don’t you?
I tell you, if my parents were beaten down by discrimination, kept quiet for fear of retaliation and passed some of that along to me, I think it is forgiveable if I have the wrong impression of society.
I lived and worked in the states not too long ago. I was shocked. The phrase used was “those people”. Those people need to do something about this and that. Those people have a lot of problems to fix.
Really? WTF? If “they” happen to have remaining problems, it is because of the past and the fact that the long slow healing process is going to take some fucking time.
Name to me, really, any serious race relations initiative taken by the white majority in America. Reactions, such as when a certain women refused to give up her seat, that have ended up in change, are NOT initiatives, they are recognition and reaction when blatent mistreatment could no longer be ignored.
There once was an attempt at workplace equity, but that was both reactionary and led to calls of reverse discrimination.
Anything? Has anything ever been done? I mean, there may be some things I’m not aware of, so please, I’d be very happy to hear of them. I really would.
If some black people want to be pissed off at white people, as long as that doesn’t lead to unlawful activity, we’ve earned it. Holy shit, it is hard to fathom the level of mistreatment that took place if you go back just a generation or two.
Now, whitey cries and whines whenever a black person may complain about discrimination when it didn’t really happen. Well shit whitey, maybe you need a real problem, like being treated as property with no damned rights for generations, then live in fear of lynching, then have everyone deny racism that is still rampant.
I can’t believe the fucking things white people are bitching about. What a whiney bunch of hypocritical fucking jackasses.
Sack up. Personally, I know I’ve never been a part of what is wrong, that isn’t what I’m suggesting. But grow a sack and acknowledge that shit was done wrong, has been for generations, and it still isn’t right.
Now, because of history, we probably do have retaliatory discrimination, racism in both directions, and all kinds of bullshit.
We’ve earned it.
And, finally, for the real idiots out there, nowhere in here is an apology. I’m not apologizing for anything. I’m recognizing things, not apologizing for them.
I wonder if recognition and understanding would be enough. Perhaps a simple lack of denial would allow things to move forward?
Damned if I know, but maybe if people stopped denying reality, energy could be put into something else, like improving things, on all sides, instead of fighting about whether or not racism exists and just who is more apt to display it.[/quote]
I remember the race riots of the sixties. I believe if I were a black man I would have rioted as well.
To give the Black race rights to use language or behavior that is not acceptable for whites is not good for race relations. If you do not care if a race of man is pissed at you can accept their anger if you like. I personally have never done anything to deserve anyone?s anger.
Why are you referring to the white race as whitey? What is wrong with the term white race?
Right now we have laws that are designed to stop discrimination, and I know they are not 100% effective. But what racial problems are blacks experiencing right now? How could we abolish these discriminatory practices?
[quote]vroom wrote:
If some black people want to be pissed off at white people, as long as that doesn’t lead to unlawful activity, we’ve earned it. Holy shit, it is hard to fathom the level of mistreatment that took place if you go back just a generation or two.
[/quote]
Why do black people, who have never experienced mistreatment have the right to take out their anger at white people (it was more than just white people by the way, many non-white people and counties also had black slaves) who have never mistreated anyone?
Why do whites need to still apologize for something they had no part in and black people complain about that didn’t happen to them?
And if you do feel this is warranted, when will it stop? When will whites be able to stop apologizing for what they didn’t do and blacks stop getting upset at things that didn’t happen to them?
You want good race relations? Then at some point we have to all just get a grip and focus on the hear and now. If we don’t it will never get better.
[quote]Lorisco wrote:
And if you do feel this is warranted, when will it stop? When will whites be able to stop apologizing for what they didn’t do and blacks stop getting upset at things that didn’t happen to them?
[/quote]
Could you please explain what “blacks” are upset about that did not happen? This statement alone implies that “blacks” just made up some problems out of thin air for no reason. Are black people as a whole insane? Please explain this comment for I do not understand.
What fucking part of THIS IS NOT IN ANY WAY AN APOLOGY did you not fucking bother to read.
[quote]vroom wrote:
Why do whites need to still apologize for something they had no part in and black people complain about that didn’t happen to them?
What fucking part of THIS IS NOT IN ANY WAY AN APOLOGY did you not fucking bother to read.[/quote]
What problems exist? And how do we remedy them?
[quote]pittbulll wrote:
vroom wrote:
Why do whites need to still apologize for something they had no part in and black people complain about that didn’t happen to them?
What fucking part of THIS IS NOT IN ANY WAY AN APOLOGY did you not fucking bother to read.
What problems exist? And how do we remedy them?
[/quote]
[quote]Lorisco wrote:
Why do black people, who have never experienced mistreatment have the right to take out their anger at white people (it was more than just white people by the way, many non-white people and counties also had black slaves) who have never mistreated anyone?
Why do whites need to still apologize for something they had no part in and black people complain about that didn’t happen to them?
And if you do feel this is warranted, when will it stop? When will whites be able to stop apologizing for what they didn’t do and blacks stop getting upset at things that didn’t happen to them?
You want good race relations? Then at some point we have to all just get a grip and focus on the hear and now. If we don’t it will never get better.
[/quote]
Okay, let me address this one. This is a variation of the same attempt to hide ignorance (lack of knowledge)of slavery and its affects on black people that reach into the present. Statements such as “Why do whites need to still apologize for something they had no part in and black people complain about that didn’t happen to them?” and “When will whites be able to stop apologizing for what they didn’t do and blacks stop getting upset at things that didn’t happen to them?” or even better “Then at some point we have to all just get a grip and focus on the hear and now.” show very little awareness of the true issues.
There is a common ignorance surrounding slavery. Because of this, people don’t feel the need to address or make amends for its influence on current society. In essence, if you aren’t taught about it, you can’t factor it in your sensitivity or decision making which creates poor conclusions about blacks at all levels of society. Since there is no accurate memory of its existence and its effects, it is easy to ignore or try to blow off this demonic process and say get over it and move on.
As far as living during those times or not, that is irrelevant in a culture or system where having white skin gave rights and privileges to one group at the expense of others. These advantages are passed on in the same way as the disadvantages are passed. Whites today are reaping the same benefits of the advantages that they had in the past. They started the game 1 yard from the finish line while we non-whites are still at the starting gate. Until there is a recognition of these unfair advantages and the imbalances corrected, the removal of the inequalties that prevent truth and justice for all Americans will never be achieved.
The problem is that the system is set up to keep us all (white, black etc.) ignorant and so long as that is true, whites will still be sitting pretty. This system works so well for the white community that many are incapable of seeing how it doesn’t work for non-whites. Because of this deception, whites (and non-whites who have bought into their beliefs) are faced with confusion and frustration because they either can’t or refuse to understand what many non-whites are angry about.
I think that some better questions that should be asked are “Why can white people understand why black people are upset?”, “Why can’t whites accept that there is some validity to black people’s feelings?”, “Why can’t the complete truth be told, taught and ingrained in our beings as part of our American experiences so we can work on ways together to correct the negative experiences and grow together as a nation?” and finally “Why do we feel that there is a finite timeline that dictates when we can stop doing the right things?”
As a white man,I knew at a very early age that blacks had a disadvantage.You’d have to be blind not to know that.The way it,is that,just like poor white communities,poor black comunities have access to lower education opportunities,and are overun with crime.The ghetto’s of America are often overlooked by the government,and the fact that they let these gangs overun poor comunities is probably stealthy rasicm.Imagine gangs overunning Beverly Hills,they would definitly eradicate them.So they let the gangs and dope pushers continue destoying inner cities.Now,I’m not saying I can relate,because I can’t.But I did see this being played out in Memphis,Tn,my hometown.Memphis has the highest percentage of blacks out of any metropolitan area in America,so even if you live in the suburbs,you’d have to be blind not to notice.Often the inner cities are distrustful of cops,and cops are often really defensive because they know that their jobs are dangerous,which often leads to fucked up incidents.I don’t have an answer how to solve,people much smarter than me have attempted,and it’s still fucked up.But it’s not hopeless,in the town where MLK Jr. was murdered,there are black sucsess stories everywhere,black ownership is on the rise,more and more black owned business are opened every day,and,while it’s still segregated somewhat,whites and black co-exist peacfully,in fact,race relations are much better than what I observed in the north-east and mid-west.