Radicals Vs. Moderates

[tmoney1]

[quote]pookie wrote:
tmoney1 wrote:
Yes, in my point of view, they are equal. Islam preaches equality, and that’s the way it should be. Man and woman are equal.

Does it really? How is that view reconciled with passages like 2:228 where is it explicitly stated that “they (women) have rights similar to those (of men) over them in kindness, and men are a degree above them. Allah is Mighty, Wise.”

Or 4:34 Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other…

You previously stated that all parts of the Quran are Allah’s word and equally valid. To me, it seems that these two passages (and there are many, many more) explicitly state that men are superior to women.[/quote]

In the next verse 2:229 it states ‘And it is not lawful for you that ye take from women aught of that which ye have given them.’ If you provide something for your wife, you shouldn’t take it back. In this specific verse, it is in relation to divorce.

And in 4:34, if you continue with the same sentence, it states 'and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). The man is providing for the woman, and giving her support.

4:124 “As for those who lead a righteous life, MALE OR FEMALE. while believing, they enter Paradise; without the slightest injustice”

16:97 “Anyone who works righteousness, MALE OR FEMALE, while believing, we will surely grant them a happy life in this world, and we will surely pay them their full recompense for their righteous works.”

40:40 "Whoever commits a sin is requited for just that, and whoever works righteousness - MALE OR FEMALE - while believing, these will enter Paradise wherein they receive provisions without any limits.

Chapters 4 (women) and 19 (Mary) are dedicated to women.

These are just a few of the verses where man and woman are equal.

I also read one time that the word ‘man’ and the word ‘woman’ are mentioned in the Quran the EXACT same number of times. That seems pretty equal to me.

[tmoney1]

[quote]olderguy wrote:
tmoney1 wrote:
Yes, in my point of view, they are equal. Islam preaches equality, and that’s the way it should be. Man and woman are equal.

If you ask me tmoney, Pookie and Skor are nailing you to the cross. Sorry, couldn’t resist.

I get the impression that you are trying to tell us what we want to hear and not what is really the case. You would like us to think that we are being misled by those who want to speak badly of the Quran, but everything you have said, from what I have seen here, has been repudiated by Skor and Pookie.

If it says it tmoney, say it. It seems in some posts you are skirting the issue.

[/quote]

Where am I skiring the issue? I’m trying to answer questions as fairly as possible.

In most of their posts, their information is correct, so they know their information. I’m not telling them what they want to hear if they already know the context. Even if it has been repudiated, I’m trying to answer their questions fairly and in an Islamic context.

I wouldn’t say they are nailing me to anything, we are just having a conversation, and giving our points of view. They have their beliefs, I have my beliefs. I respect their views, and hopefully they respect my views. If they do, that’s great, and if they don’t, that’s fine, I am not and will not be mad at them or disrespect them, or anyone here, in any fashion.

Olderguy, pookie, and skor, what religion do you follow?

[pookie]

[quote]tmoney1 wrote:
In the next verse 2:229 it states ‘And it is not lawful for you that ye take from women aught of that which ye have given them.’ If you provide something for your wife, you shouldn’t take it back. In this specific verse, it is in relation to divorce.[/quote]

Ok… but it doesn’t address the inequality.

And in 4:34, if you continue with the same sentence, it states 'and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). The man is providing for the woman, and giving her support.

I fail to see equality here. Can the woman have property and support the man?

4:124 “As for those who lead a righteous life, MALE OR FEMALE. while believing, they enter Paradise; without the slightest injustice”

Nothing about equality here. To me, it sounds more like “know your place, obey your station and you will be rewarded.”

16:97 “Anyone who works righteousness, MALE OR FEMALE, while believing, we will surely grant them a happy life in this world, and we will surely pay them their full recompense for their righteous works.”

Again, nothing speaks to equality here. Just as the law of man applies the same to an employee and his boss, it doesn’t make them equal in life.

[quote]40:40 "Whoever commits a sin is requited for just that, and whoever works righteousness - MALE OR FEMALE - while believing, these will enter Paradise wherein they receive provisions without any limits.

Chapters 4 (women) and 19 (Mary) are dedicated to women.[/quote]

Two whole chapters out of 114? One of them just for Mary? That’s equality?

And chapter 4 repeatedly states that a man is worth two woman; that a man is to inherit double the part of the woman; that a man can have up to four wives; but a woman cannot have 4 husbands. You are not to pray if you have recently touched a woman, because you are then unclean; although if you can’t find water, rubbing your hands in some dirt will make you clean enough… Allah gives virgins to those who believe and do good works, etc.

[quote]These are just a few of the verses where man and woman are equal.

I also read one time that the word ‘man’ and the word ‘woman’ are mentioned in the Quran the EXACT same number of times. That seems pretty equal to me.[/quote]

Your examples are unconvincing. And if you write “man is superior to woman” one thousand times, you’ll use both words in the same amount, but the meaning remains clear. Counting words to support an assertion is pretty weak. Usually we read them and understand the intended meaning.

[olderguy]

[quote]tmoney1 wrote:
olderguy wrote:
tmoney1 wrote:
Yes, in my point of view, they are equal. Islam preaches equality, and that’s the way it should be. Man and woman are equal.

If you ask me tmoney, Pookie and Skor are nailing you to the cross. Sorry, couldn’t resist.

I get the impression that you are trying to tell us what we want to hear and not what is really the case. You would like us to think that we are being misled by those who want to speak badly of the Quran, but everything you have said, from what I have seen here, has been repudiated by Skor and Pookie.

If it says it tmoney, say it. It seems in some posts you are skirting the issue.

Where am I skiring the issue? I’m trying to answer questions as fairly as possible.

In most of their posts, their information is correct, so they know their information. I’m not telling them what they want to hear if they already know the context. Even if it has been repudiated, I’m trying to answer their questions fairly and in an Islamic context.

I wouldn’t say they are nailing me to anything, we are just having a conversation, and giving our points of view. They have their beliefs, I have my beliefs. I respect their views, and hopefully they respect my views. If they do, that’s great, and if they don’t, that’s fine, I am not and will not be mad at them or disrespect them, or anyone here, in any fashion.

Olderguy, pookie, and skor, what religion do you follow?[/quote]

To answer your question, I am a Christian.

Ok, they aren’t nailing you to a cross, but in Pookie’s last post, he certainly is backing you into a corner. I think you are smart enough to know where he is coming from. I am curious to see how you reply.

[pookie]

[quote]tmoney1 wrote:
In most of their posts, their information is correct, so they know their information.[/quote]

Well, for me, I have read some chapters and have an understanding of what is said (or at least, what appears to be said.)

I’m interested in how actual muslims interpret these same passages; how they reconcile the Quran with modern Western society when values from each are in conflict.

I was wondering if some chapters of the Quran where considered “historical” in the manner the Old Testament is for Christians. This is apparently not the case, although I remember hearing about “abrogation” of passages in the Quran, which means that older passages can be overruled by more recent ones, making the timeline of revelation an important aspect of the Quran.

Also, I cannot read the Arabic Quran; I don’t know how much meaning is loss in translation. I know many of the hardest (to understand) Bible verses are sometimes easier understood in the original Hebrew or Greek. I presume the same phenomenon happens with translations of the Quran.

[quote]I’m not telling them what they want to hear if they already know the context. Even if it has been repudiated, I’m trying to answer their questions fairly and in an Islamic context.

I wouldn’t say they are nailing me to anything, we are just having a conversation, and giving our points of view. They have their beliefs, I have my beliefs. I respect their views, and hopefully they respect my views. If they do, that’s great, and if they don’t, that’s fine, I am not and will not be mad at them or disrespect them, or anyone here, in any fashion.[/quote]

Personally, I’m not trying to “nail” anyone to anything; I’m simply trying to see how parts of the Quran I find to be unjust or cruel are seen by a modern day muslim.

Olderguy, pookie, and skor, what religion do you follow?

I’m an atheist. I don’t believe a God exists and I don’t expect an afterlife either. I find religion to be a fascinating human phenomenon. I also find religion can easily pass from “fascinating” to “scary” when medium to large groups of people decide apply the literal meaning of their holy books to everyone who doesn’t think as they do.

I believe the Quran says we shouldn’t be friends. A few verses allow for freedom of religion (and even freedom from religion); but about 10 times as many tell of the fate Allah has reserved for disbelievers.

[skor]

tmoney1,

-I try to follow the Quran directly, as it states. A lot of it is applicable to life today, but is stated in a different context. (practice moderation, show kindness to one another, etc.)

I feel it is applicable to life today. God handed down the Quran over 1400 years ago, and the word of God can’t be changed, and God knows the future, and sent the Quran down, knowing what is going to happen, and revealed the Quran accordingly.

-And killing will not be accepted by God or myself, regardless of the situation.

How do you reconcile this position with Quran/Sharia calling for death of an apostate? You’ve avoided answering this question.

[pat]

[quote]olderguy wrote:
tmoney1 wrote:
Yes, in my point of view, they are equal. Islam preaches equality, and that’s the way it should be. Man and woman are equal.

If you ask me tmoney, Pookie and Skor are nailing you to the cross. Sorry, couldn’t resist.

I get the impression that you are trying to tell us what we want to hear and not what is really the case. You would like us to think that we are being misled by those who want to speak badly of the Quran, but everything you have said, from what I have seen here, has been repudiated by Skor and Pookie.

If it says it tmoney, say it. It seems in some posts you are skirting the issue.

[/quote]

I don’t think that is fair. Tmoney has been more than generous with his questions and answers. I think this is an important dialog and some excellent questions and answers have been posted.

You know if conversations like this were to take place, say a couple million more times around the world the world would be a better place. Understanding builds peace. Understanding comes through dialog.
I say keep up the good work everyone.

[pat]

[quote]tmoney1 wrote:
pat36 wrote:
tmoney, I like to thank you for fielding all our questions. I know it must be tough as you are more or less alone. I do not know much of Islam’s teachings. But I do know that killing and violence is an abomination to God in my understanding. Yet, these Usama’s and Al Sadr’s of the world say the exact opposite. In most religions of the world using God’s, Allah’s, the

Great Power word and name to do harm and violence to others is a great blasphamy and nothing, not even openly insulting God, will put you further from him. Do you aggree?
Also, I too would like to know how moderate Islam is trying to clean up the “trash” in Islam.

Hey no problem. I love talking about Islam. I’m sorry if I’m not answering everyone’s questions, I’m trying as best I can.

And if I have offended anyone in the process, please forgive me, it was not intentional.

Pat, you are correct, disrespecting God in this way will definitely put you further away from him. Killing innocent people is against any religion, and doing this will definitely put you further away. The only way is to ask God for forgiveness and repentance.

Honestly, I don’t feel moderate muslims are doing much to clean up the so-called ‘trash.’ It seems to me that moderate muslims stick together, radical muslims stick together, and no one interferes with each other. Each group goes about their ways, and each person will answer to God for their actions.

It seems the issue is big in Britain, and other European countries. Moderate muslims in those areas need to team up with government officials to stop these horrible and crude acts done upon society.[/quote]

My question was actually more pointed. I am not talking about just killing people. I am talking about killing people in the name of God. And/or, using God’s word to justify killing.

To my understanding that is more of an abomination that just plain old killing. Killing is a sin, killing in God’s name is a blasphamy of the highest order. Do you and Islam aggree with that notion?