T Nation

Radicals Vs. Moderates

[quote]tmoney1 wrote:
pat36 wrote:
tmoney, I like to thank you for fielding all our questions. I know it must be tough as you are more or less alone. I do not know much of Islam’s teachings. But I do know that killing and violence is an abomination to God in my understanding. Yet, these Usama’s and Al Sadr’s of the world say the exact opposite. In most religions of the world using God’s, Allah’s, the

Great Power word and name to do harm and violence to others is a great blasphamy and nothing, not even openly insulting God, will put you further from him. Do you aggree?
Also, I too would like to know how moderate Islam is trying to clean up the “trash” in Islam.

Hey no problem. I love talking about Islam. I’m sorry if I’m not answering everyone’s questions, I’m trying as best I can.

And if I have offended anyone in the process, please forgive me, it was not intentional.

Pat, you are correct, disrespecting God in this way will definitely put you further away from him. Killing innocent people is against any religion, and doing this will definitely put you further away. The only way is to ask God for forgiveness and repentance.

Honestly, I don’t feel moderate muslims are doing much to clean up the so-called ‘trash.’ It seems to me that moderate muslims stick together, radical muslims stick together, and no one interferes with each other. Each group goes about their ways, and each person will answer to God for their actions.

It seems the issue is big in Britain, and other European countries. Moderate muslims in those areas need to team up with government officials to stop these horrible and crude acts done upon society.[/quote]

Tmoney

You’ve made many good posts on this thread.

Define innocent for me in your above response. Is someone who speaks against Islam innocent? Is it OK to kill them under Islamic teaching? Or do you mean innocent in a secular context?

[quote]skor wrote:
tmoney1 wrote:
Killing people is against all religions and should not be tolerated.

What about death penalty for Muslims who abandon Islam? That’s a part of Quran AFAIK.[/quote]

I believe, unfortunately, this method is still practiced in muslim countries, which is why, God forbid, people who abandon Islam usually flee their home country, live in another country or continent, and change their identity (name, religion, etc.)

[quote]skor wrote:

From what I now, they are treated fairly and equally, just like muslim citizens. As long as they are law-abiding citizens everything is ok.

Pretty much like how Muslims are treated in a non-Muslim country (eg. USA). We are treated fairly and with respect.

False. A non-Muslim man can’t marry a Muslim woman.[/quote]

A non-Muslim man can marry a Muslim woman if the man converts to Islam as his religion, and is in agreeance with her family.

[quote]tmoney1 wrote:
skor wrote:
tmoney1 wrote:
Killing people is against all religions and should not be tolerated.

What about death penalty for Muslims who abandon Islam? That’s a part of Quran AFAIK.

I believe, unfortunately, this method is still practiced in muslim countries, which is why, God forbid, people who abandon Islam usually flee their home country, live in another country or continent, and change their identity (name, religion, etc.)[/quote]

This leads me to the same question that Pookie had - is Quran viewed as a literate word of God even by “moderate” Muslims or not? Because it is viewed as such, then why is it “unfortunate”? It’s just God’s will, which can’t be unfortunate as God is all-knowing and benevolent. Quran calls for death of adulters too.

If these things are not a part of moderate Muslim world-view (not in a sense of just tolerating it since it can’t be enforces in a non-Muslim country), how to they reconcile it with the main premise that Quran is a literate word of God revealed to Mohhamed?

I’m afraid of anybody who believes in infallibility of a book, be it Torah, Bible or Quran.

[quote]hedo wrote:
tmoney1 wrote:
pat36 wrote:
tmoney, I like to thank you for fielding all our questions. I know it must be tough as you are more or less alone. I do not know much of Islam’s teachings. But I do know that killing and violence is an abomination to God in my understanding. Yet, these Usama’s and Al Sadr’s of the world say the exact opposite. In most religions of the world using God’s, Allah’s, the

Great Power word and name to do harm and violence to others is a great blasphamy and nothing, not even openly insulting God, will put you further from him. Do you aggree?
Also, I too would like to know how moderate Islam is trying to clean up the “trash” in Islam.

Hey no problem. I love talking about Islam. I’m sorry if I’m not answering everyone’s questions, I’m trying as best I can.

And if I have offended anyone in the process, please forgive me, it was not intentional.

Pat, you are correct, disrespecting God in this way will definitely put you further away from him. Killing innocent people is against any religion, and doing this will definitely put you further away. The only way is to ask God for forgiveness and repentance.

Honestly, I don’t feel moderate muslims are doing much to clean up the so-called ‘trash.’ It seems to me that moderate muslims stick together, radical muslims stick together, and no one interferes with each other. Each group goes about their ways, and each person will answer to God for their actions.

It seems the issue is big in Britain, and other European countries. Moderate muslims in those areas need to team up with government officials to stop these horrible and crude acts done upon society.

Tmoney

You’ve made many good posts on this thread.

Define innocent for me in your above response. Is someone who speaks against Islam innocent? Is it OK to kill them under Islamic teaching? Or do you mean innocent in a secular context?

[/quote]

When I say innocent, I mean a person who has nothing to do with a specific situation, who is an innocent bystander, and who happens to be caught in the middle of something bad.

For instance, if a radical, God forbid, blows up a bus that was carrying 50 people. The radical blows up the bus for no reason, other than ‘jihad’, then the people on the bus are innocent citizens. They didn’t know what was going to happen, they don’t know the radical muslim, and the radical muslim doesn’t know them. These innocent people were unfortunately caught in something bad, and had nothing to do with the radical Muslim’s act.

Islam does not teach or promote killing in any way. Muslim or not, you are taking a life away, and that is wrong. In this case, innocent would mean not knowing about the circumstances.

Hope this clears it up. I apologize, I should have been more specific. Please forgive me.

After he converts he is no longer a “non-Muslim”, especially given that renouncing Islam afterwards will get him a death penalty. In USA a Muslim man can marry a non-Muslim woman without conversion. Your comparison doesn’t hold.

[quote]tmoney1 wrote:
skor wrote:

From what I now, they are treated fairly and equally, just like muslim citizens. As long as they are law-abiding citizens everything is ok.

Pretty much like how Muslims are treated in a non-Muslim country (eg. USA). We are treated fairly and with respect.

False. A non-Muslim man can’t marry a Muslim woman.

A non-Muslim man can marry a Muslim woman if the man converts to Islam as his religion, and is in agreeance with her family.[/quote]

[quote]tmoney1 wrote:
When I say innocent, I mean a person who has nothing to do with a specific situation, who is an innocent bystander, and who happens to be caught in the middle of something bad.

For instance, if a radical, God forbid, blows up a bus that was carrying 50 people. The radical blows up the bus for no reason, other than ‘jihad’, then the people on the bus are innocent citizens. They didn’t know what was going to happen, they don’t know the radical muslim, and the radical muslim doesn’t know them. These innocent people were unfortunately caught in something bad, and had nothing to do with the radical Muslim’s act.
[/quote]

What about those who justify suicide bombing in Israel by claiming that most of the population over 18yo served in IDF in one way or another?

So is the person no longer innocent just because he decides to stop being Muslim one day?

Why would he renounce Islam afterwards? If the man loves the muslim woman enough, and converts to Islam, then he won’t renounce Islam, he will stay with it. He shouldn’t convert to Islam to marry the woman, get married, then renounce Islam.

You’re right. In USA a Muslim man can marry a non-Muslim without conversion, but it is highly recommend that the non-Muslim convert to Islam.

[quote]skor wrote:
After he converts he is no longer a “non-Muslim”, especially given that renouncing Islam afterwards will get him a death penalty. In USA a Muslim man can marry a non-Muslim woman without conversion. Your comparison doesn’t hold.

tmoney1 wrote:
skor wrote:

From what I now, they are treated fairly and equally, just like muslim citizens. As long as they are law-abiding citizens everything is ok.

Pretty much like how Muslims are treated in a non-Muslim country (eg. USA). We are treated fairly and with respect.

False. A non-Muslim man can’t marry a Muslim woman.

A non-Muslim man can marry a Muslim woman if the man converts to Islam as his religion, and is in agreeance with her family.

[/quote]

[quote]skor wrote:
tmoney1 wrote:
skor wrote:
tmoney1 wrote:
Killing people is against all religions and should not be tolerated.

What about death penalty for Muslims who abandon Islam? That’s a part of Quran AFAIK.

I believe, unfortunately, this method is still practiced in muslim countries, which is why, God forbid, people who abandon Islam usually flee their home country, live in another country or continent, and change their identity (name, religion, etc.)

This leads me to the same question that Pookie had - is Quran viewed as a literate word of God even by “moderate” Muslims or not? Because it is viewed as such, then why is it “unfortunate”? It’s just God’s will, which can’t be unfortunate as God is all-knowing and benevolent. Quran calls for death of adulters too.

If these things are not a part of moderate Muslim world-view (not in a sense of just tolerating it since it can’t be enforces in a non-Muslim country), how to they reconcile it with the main premise that Quran is a literate word of God revealed to Mohhamed?

I’m afraid of anybody who believes in infallibility of a book, be it Torah, Bible or Quran.[/quote]

When I said ‘unfortunately’, I meant that in a more personal sense. Seeing anyone being killed, especially Muslims, hurts me deeply.

The Quran is a basic foundation for Muslims to live by. If a Muslim follows it, may God reward them. If they don’t, then they will have to answer to God for their actions.

[quote]skor wrote:
tmoney1 wrote:
When I say innocent, I mean a person who has nothing to do with a specific situation, who is an innocent bystander, and who happens to be caught in the middle of something bad.

For instance, if a radical, God forbid, blows up a bus that was carrying 50 people. The radical blows up the bus for no reason, other than ‘jihad’, then the people on the bus are innocent citizens. They didn’t know what was going to happen, they don’t know the radical muslim, and the radical muslim doesn’t know them. These innocent people were unfortunately caught in something bad, and had nothing to do with the radical Muslim’s act.

What about those who justify suicide bombing in Israel by claiming that most of the population over 18yo served in IDF in one way or another?

Bombing of any kind is wrong, especially suicide bombing. Was it Muslims who performed these acts? In Israel, the vast majority of the population is Jewish. Who justified these acts? Was it the bombers themselves before they committed their acts?

Islam does not teach or promote killing in any way. Muslim or not, you are taking a life away, and that is wrong. In this case, innocent would mean not knowing about the circumstances.

So is the person no longer innocent just because he decides to stop being Muslim one day?[/quote]

A person is still innocent. It is their choice if they want to practice Islam or not. They will have to answer to Allah as to why they stopped practicing Islam.

Skor,

I applaud your knowledge of Islam. You seem very well versed on the religion and know what you are talking about. I am very happy to see that. Keep up the good work.

[quote]tmoney1 wrote:
skor wrote:

So is the person no longer innocent just because he decides to stop being Muslim one day?

A person is still innocent. It is their choice if they want to practice Islam or not. They will have to answer to Allah as to why they stopped practicing Islam.[/quote]

So is killing him pretty much just a way to expedite “answer to Allah” process?

So is killing him pretty much just a way to expedite “answer to Allah” process?[/quote]

Who is ‘him?’ The person denouncing Islam? In that case, the person who killed him can say it is ‘jihad’, but it’s not a viable reason to kill anyone, and will not be accepted.

[quote]tmoney1 wrote:
I applaud your knowledge of Islam.[/quote]

In your view, how does a woman compare to a man? Are they equals?

Yes, in my point of view, they are equal. Islam preaches equality, and that’s the way it should be. Man and woman are equal.

This thread is awesome, I always enjoy enlightening myself with these kinds of subjects. Thanks tmoney.

[quote]tmoney1 wrote:
So is killing him pretty much just a way to expedite “answer to Allah” process?

Who is ‘him?’ The person denouncing Islam? In that case, the person who killed him can say it is ‘jihad’, but it’s not a viable reason to kill anyone, and will not be accepted.[/quote]

Will not be accepted by whom? You, personally? I’m glad that the answer is yes.

Sharia Law/Quran? Definitely not! (as in it WILL be accepted as a just punishment). Killing an apostate is a part of Quran teachings and part of Sharia laws.

Do you choose the parts of Quran that you follow or do you feel that all of it is applicable to real life today?

Not in Islam! Men and women are clearly not treated equally by Quran/Sharia. There might be several verses that “preach” equality, but they are overpowered by many others which preach otherwise. Looking at Islamic countries tells me what the likely, real-life results of practicing Islamic law are.

A lot of real life inequality might come from culture rather than Islamic teachings, but they preach men/women equality hard, the inequality would have been mostly eliminated after 1300 year.

The positive side of Islam is great - it calls for peace, justice, equality. But definition of these terms is rather peculiar and their implementation calls for questionable methods.

[quote]tmoney1 wrote:
Yes, in my point of view, they are equal. Islam preaches equality, and that’s the way it should be. Man and woman are equal.[/quote]

Does it really? How is that view reconciled with passages like 2:228 where is it explicitly stated that “they (women) have rights similar to those (of men) over them in kindness, and men are a degree above them. Allah is Mighty, Wise.”

Or 4:34 Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other…

You previously stated that all parts of the Quran are Allah’s word and equally valid. To me, it seems that these two passages (and there are many, many more) explicitly state that men are superior to women.

[quote]tmoney1 wrote:
Yes, in my point of view, they are equal. Islam preaches equality, and that’s the way it should be. Man and woman are equal.[/quote]

If you ask me tmoney, Pookie and Skor are nailing you to the cross. Sorry, couldn’t resist.

I get the impression that you are trying to tell us what we want to hear and not what is really the case. You would like us to think that we are being misled by those who want to speak badly of the Quran, but everything you have said, from what I have seen here, has been repudiated by Skor and Pookie.

If it says it tmoney, say it. It seems in some posts you are skirting the issue.

[quote]skor wrote:
tmoney1 wrote:
So is killing him pretty much just a way to expedite “answer to Allah” process?

Who is ‘him?’ The person denouncing Islam? In that case, the person who killed him can say it is ‘jihad’, but it’s not a viable reason to kill anyone, and will not be accepted.

Will not be accepted by whom? You, personally? I’m glad that the answer is yes.

Sharia Law/Quran? Definitely not! (as in it WILL be accepted as a just punishment). Killing an apostate is a part of Quran teachings and part of Sharia laws.

Do you choose the parts of Quran that you follow or do you feel that all of it is applicable to real life today?

Yes, in my point of view, they are equal. Islam preaches equality, and that’s the way it should be. Man and woman are equal.

Not in Islam! Men and women are clearly not treated equally by Quran/Sharia. There might be several verses that “preach” equality, but they are overpowered by many others which preach otherwise. Looking at Islamic countries tells me what the likely, real-life results of practicing Islamic law are.

A lot of real life inequality might come from culture rather than Islamic teachings, but they preach men/women equality hard, the inequality would have been mostly eliminated after 1300 year.

The positive side of Islam is great - it calls for peace, justice, equality. But definition of these terms is rather peculiar and their implementation calls for questionable methods.[/quote]

I try to follow the Quran directly, as it states. A lot of it is applicable to life today, but is stated in a different context. (practice moderation, show kindness to one another, etc.)

I feel it is applicable to life today. God handed down the Quran over 1400 years ago, and the word of God can’t be changed, and God knows the future, and sent the Quran down, knowing what is going to happen, and revealed the Quran accordingly.

And killing will not be accepted by God or myself, regardless of the situation.