T Nation

Radicals Vs. Moderates

How are the moderates trying to stem radicalism? What specifically are they doing? And what has the radical response been? Is there really any way to stop these lunatics? Won’t the radicals just deem the moderates as debased as the rest of the world and determine they also need to die with the infidel for standing in the way of the grand cause?

[quote]tmoney1 wrote:
Actually, the number of Muslims in the world I’ve heard kicked around is nearer to 1.2 Billion.

Anyway, as a Muslim, is there a movement with in Islam to stamp out the heresy? If the the radical portion is a fraction of the larger majority the sheer numbers of moderate should be enough to overwelm the much smaller radical movement.

I quote Jim Morrison when I say “They got the guns, but we got the numbers.”
The problem is that I do not see a signifigant temperance of violence movement with in Islam. It’s all about hating Bush and Isreal; which is getting old quite frankly.

I understand the media is doing it part to make radical Islam look like the norm and they appear to agree with it. I assume they unite with anybody who hates Bush. But honestly, if the moderate contigent would stand up the this and quell the many factions of radical movements, I am pretty sure we’d here about it.
The best solution for everybody would be for Islam to clean it’s own house.

A new census came out in November stating it is closer to 1.7 billion. It was done by a council in Saudi Arabia.

There is a movement, but it’s not worldwide, unfortunately. Muslims are trying to stamp it out in their respective communities, and hopefully one by one it will get eliminated.

I agree with you, a radical portion is a small fraction of the larger majority, but the radical fraction are the people who are speaking out and saying wrong things. Most muslims live and act in peace, they mind their own business, and hence, that’s why you don’t hear about moderate muslims as much as radical muslims. If you have 10 muslims, 9 moderate muslims, and 1 radical, and it’s the radical muslim who does all the talking, then you are going to remember that person, not the 9 people who acted in peace.

[/quote]Let’s say the one radical muslim car bombs a military installation or a subway in the UK, he stands out in the crowd[quote]

Islam is trying to clean it’s own house community by community. I’ll admit, it’s a large project, and it will be hard, but by the grace of Allah, we will be successful.[/quote]

[quote]tmoney1 wrote:
The Quran is guidance for Muslims, but there is give and take. There are exceptions to everything. The Quran should be followed at all times. It is a template for Islamic life, but there are exceptions.

For instance, you are supposed to pray 5 times a day. If you miss a prayer for whatever reason, you can make up that prayer later on in the day. For instance, if the early afternoon prayer is at 1.00pm, and I have a job interview at that time, and don’t get out until 2pm, then I can make that up. Allah knows your situations and circumstances.[/quote]

It’s not really the prayer mechanics that concern me, so much as the Qu’ran constantly repeating that a woman is worth half a man, and is to be subservient, etc. There are also many passages about infidels, where basically, anything goes when it comes to fighting or converting them.

Similarly, the many passages about “hypocrites” (ie, muslims associating with Christians and Jews) have me wondering what muslims living in non-muslims societies are really thinking.

Many of the “worst” passages of the Bible are in the Old Testament, which is easily discounted by Christian, since Jesus establishes a new covenant in the New Testament. As far as I’m aware, all parts of the Qu’ran are Allah’s word, and none of it has less meaning or less truth than any other part. Am I correct?

[quote]As far as I’m aware, all parts of the Qu’ran are Allah’s word, and none of it has less meaning or less truth than any other part. Am I correct?

[/quote]

Yes, that is correct. God revealed the holy Quran to Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him), through Gabriel. All parts are of equal value, because it is the word of God, and the word of God cannot be changed.

Pookie, I admire your knowledge of Islam, it’s very good, and I am impressed. Keep it up.

[quote]tmoney1 wrote:

Yes, that is correct. God revealed the holy Quran to Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him), through Gabriel. All parts are of equal value, because it is the word of God, and the word of God cannot be changed.

[/quote]

if all parts of the Qu’ran are of equal value and voiced by God where are radicals un-Islamic when they want subjugate and destroy the infidels and their culture since numerous verses of the Qu’ran actually calls upon Muslims to kill and suppress the infidels.

I know some people try to put forth an argument by putting these harsh verses into a historical context i.e time of (defensive) war, but if the Qu’ran is God’s eternal word and Mohamed was the last prophet why would you need any historical context?

Other than that I believe that Muslims, being that I know a few of them, generally are peaceful. It is alarming, however, to see that 13% of British Muslims view the London bombers as matyrs and it makes one wonder whether there truly is a hidden agenda amongst a relatively large minority of Muslims.

Why don’t just cut the crap about muslims and islam as a threat to the world. Discontent, powerlessness and poverty are the threats. They gave fuel for communism and for nazism. Today they give fuel for islamism. And no, you don’t have to be a poor bugger from Pakistan to become a terrorist.

You don’t have to be a furry animal to be a radical member of PETA. Blaiming the quran is barking at the wrong tree. Quran just happens to be convenient, they didn’t have to write a new manifesto.

Terrorist attacks in the west get good visibility and are excellent ways for terrorists to show their strength and get more recruits. They need fresh flesh, lots of it. The main scene is in the muslim countries, though.

The interesting question is how to fight them? By supporting the governments? With aid programs to the poor? With financial investments? By bombing them all? By sending troops? By tightening western borders? I don’t know.

[quote]tmoney1 wrote:
Yes, that is correct. God revealed the holy Quran to Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him), through Gabriel. All parts are of equal value, because it is the word of God, and the word of God cannot be changed.

Pookie, I admire your knowledge of Islam, it’s very good, and I am impressed. Keep it up.[/quote]

Yet, it is exactly that knowledge that makes me wary of Islam and muslims. There are many verses in the Quran that instruct to do violence to unbelievers; verses that promise great rewards for any who participate in religious wars, etc. My understanding is that for any muslim, his first allegiance is to Allah and the Quran and then to muslim brethren.

My understanding leads me to conclude that in a war that would involve muslims and infidels, no true muslim could side with the infidels; doing so would brand him “an hypocrite” and mark him (and possibly his whole family) for death.

That’s why I’m asking if moderate muslims are moderate to the point of being able to ignore the Quran when it comes to Western societies way of life, or women’s rights, for example. What I’m saying is that I’m all for etaco’s drinking and partying muslims. In other words, how moderate are “moderates?”

Now its been a while since I studied this stuff, but I did take some courses on Middle Eastern History back in college. One thing I do remember was that when the Arabian peninsula was an Islamic Empire, there were quite a few Christians and Jews living in it without fear of persecution.

That true? How do Muslims look at non-muslims? Do you feel that we are all worshipping the same God, but that Muslims are using the teachings of the most recent Prophet (Muslims view Jesus as the last prophet before Mohammed right?

[quote]Ren wrote:
Now its been a while since I studied this stuff, but I did take some courses on Middle Eastern History back in college. One thing I do remember was that when the Arabian peninsula was an Islamic Empire, there were quite a few Christians and Jews living in it without fear of persecution.

That true? How do Muslims look at non-muslims? Do you feel that we are all worshipping the same God, but that Muslims are using the teachings of the most recent Prophet (Muslims view Jesus as the last prophet before Mohammed right?[/quote]

They were 2nd class citizens and were occasionally persecuted, similar but probably to a lesser extent, to what happened in Europe to non-Christians. I don’t think they were subject to anything as bad as the Spanish Inquisition.

[quote]Ren wrote:
Now its been a while since I studied this stuff, but I did take some courses on Middle Eastern History back in college. One thing I do remember was that when the Arabian peninsula was an Islamic Empire, there were quite a few Christians and Jews living in it without fear of persecution.

That true? How do Muslims look at non-muslims? Do you feel that we are all worshipping the same God, but that Muslims are using the teachings of the most recent Prophet (Muslims view Jesus as the last prophet before Mohammed right?[/quote]

Ren they lived without fear of persecution as long as the paid a tax to the Muslim overlords. If they didn’t they were banished or killed.

tmoney, I like to thank you for fielding all our questions. I know it must be tough as you are more or less alone. I do not know much of Islam’s teachings. But I do know that killing and violence is an abomination to God in my understanding. Yet, these Usama’s and Al Sadr’s of the world say the exact opposite. In most religions of the world using God’s, Allah’s, the

Great Power word and name to do harm and violence to others is a great blasphamy and nothing, not even openly insulting God, will put you further from him. Do you aggree?
Also, I too would like to know how moderate Islam is trying to clean up the “trash” in Islam.

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:

They were 2nd class citizens and were occasionally persecuted, similar but probably to a lesser extent, to what happened in Europe to non-Christians. I don’t think they were subject to anything as bad as the Spanish Inquisition.

[/quote]

I don’t think anyone was expecting the Spanish Inquisition.

What is it like today though? In muslim-majority countries, how are non-muslims treated now?

if all parts of the Qu’ran are of equal value and voiced by God where are radicals un-Islamic when they want subjugate and destroy the infidels and their culture since numerous verses of the Qu’ran actually calls upon Muslims to kill and suppress the infidels.

I know some people try to put forth an argument by putting these harsh verses into a historical context i.e time of (defensive) war, but if the Qu’ran is God’s eternal word and Mohamed was the last prophet why would you need any historical context?

Other than that I believe that Muslims, being that I know a few of them, generally are peaceful. It is alarming, however, to see that 13% of British Muslims view the London bombers as matyrs and it makes one wonder whether there truly is a hidden agenda amongst a relatively large minority of Muslims. [/quote]

You need the historical context as a reference, but I feel that radicals today are taking the term ‘jihad’ too literally. They feel they are fighting a war today against disbelievers, and that is not what they should be doing.

The time of the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him), and today are totally different. During the Prophet’s time, people were out to kill him because he was trying to promote Islam. He had to fight to defend himself, and to spread the religion. That is jihad (holy war). But radicals feel they have to do un-Islamic acts, then say it is for ‘jihad’ There is no need for that. Killing people is against all religions and should not be tolerated.

[quote]karva wrote:
Why don’t just cut the crap about muslims and islam as a threat to the world. Discontent, powerlessness and poverty are the threats. They gave fuel for communism and for nazism. Today they give fuel for islamism. And no, you don’t have to be a poor bugger from Pakistan to become a terrorist.

You don’t have to be a furry animal to be a radical member of PETA. Blaiming the quran is barking at the wrong tree. Quran just happens to be convenient, they didn’t have to write a new manifesto.

Terrorist attacks in the west get good visibility and are excellent ways for terrorists to show their strength and get more recruits. They need fresh flesh, lots of it. The main scene is in the muslim countries, though.

The interesting question is how to fight them? By supporting the governments? With aid programs to the poor? With financial investments? By bombing them all? By sending troops? By tightening western borders? I don’t know.[/quote]

I agree. Poverty is a great threat to the world, not terrorism.

The answer as to how to stop them is difficult, and I feel will become very expensive and very long in the efforts necessary.

Yet, it is exactly that knowledge that makes me wary of Islam and muslims. There are many verses in the Quran that instruct to do violence to unbelievers; verses that promise great rewards for any who participate in religious wars, etc. My understanding is that for any muslim, his first allegiance is to Allah and the Quran and then to muslim brethren.

My understanding leads me to conclude that in a war that would involve muslims and infidels, no true muslim could side with the infidels; doing so would brand him “an hypocrite” and mark him (and possibly his whole family) for death.

That’s why I’m asking if moderate muslims are moderate to the point of being able to ignore the Quran when it comes to Western societies way of life, or women’s rights, for example. What I’m saying is that I’m all for etaco’s drinking and partying muslims. In other words, how moderate are “moderates?”
[/quote]

There are many different meanings of the word ‘moderate’ in this context. A Muslim should never ignore the words of the Quran, and if they do, then to each his or her own, and they will have to answer to Allah for their actions.

Some muslims will succumb to the ways of western society. Drinking, smoking, drug use, premarital sex, etc., but that is the choice of each person.

Moderate is upon the individual, and everyone’s definition is different. My definition will be different from another muslims definition. Most muslims know the foundation of the religion, and should follow it, and it they don’t, so be it. A muslim knows to pray 5 times a day, and if they only pray 3 times a day, they know the rules and should follow it. Are they following the religion in ‘moderation’ per se? That’s on their shoulders.

[quote]Ren wrote:
Now its been a while since I studied this stuff, but I did take some courses on Middle Eastern History back in college. One thing I do remember was that when the Arabian peninsula was an Islamic Empire, there were quite a few Christians and Jews living in it without fear of persecution.

That true? How do Muslims look at non-muslims? Do you feel that we are all worshipping the same God, but that Muslims are using the teachings of the most recent Prophet (Muslims view Jesus as the last prophet before Mohammed right?[/quote]

Muslims should view non-Muslims as human beings. They shouldn’t be judged on the basis of their religion, skin color, gender, age, etc. We feel there is one God, and we worship the same God, but in different ways.

Yes you are correct, in most narrations, Jesus is the last Prophet of God before Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him).

We follow the ways and teachings of the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him), BUT WE DON’T NOT PRAY TO HIM, WE PRAY TO GOD, AND GOD ONLY. We use his teachings for religion and for everyday life.

[quote]pat36 wrote:
tmoney, I like to thank you for fielding all our questions. I know it must be tough as you are more or less alone. I do not know much of Islam’s teachings. But I do know that killing and violence is an abomination to God in my understanding. Yet, these Usama’s and Al Sadr’s of the world say the exact opposite. In most religions of the world using God’s, Allah’s, the

Great Power word and name to do harm and violence to others is a great blasphamy and nothing, not even openly insulting God, will put you further from him. Do you aggree?
Also, I too would like to know how moderate Islam is trying to clean up the “trash” in Islam. [/quote]

Hey no problem. I love talking about Islam. I’m sorry if I’m not answering everyone’s questions, I’m trying as best I can.

And if I have offended anyone in the process, please forgive me, it was not intentional.

Pat, you are correct, disrespecting God in this way will definitely put you further away from him. Killing innocent people is against any religion, and doing this will definitely put you further away. The only way is to ask God for forgiveness and repentance.

Honestly, I don’t feel moderate muslims are doing much to clean up the so-called ‘trash.’ It seems to me that moderate muslims stick together, radical muslims stick together, and no one interferes with each other. Each group goes about their ways, and each person will answer to God for their actions.

It seems the issue is big in Britain, and other European countries. Moderate muslims in those areas need to team up with government officials to stop these horrible and crude acts done upon society.

[quote]tmoney1 wrote:
Killing people is against all religions and should not be tolerated.[/quote]

What about death penalty for Muslims who abandon Islam? That’s a part of Quran AFAIK.

[quote]Cunnivore wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:

They were 2nd class citizens and were occasionally persecuted, similar but probably to a lesser extent, to what happened in Europe to non-Christians. I don’t think they were subject to anything as bad as the Spanish Inquisition.

I don’t think anyone was expecting the Spanish Inquisition.

What is it like today though? In muslim-majority countries, how are non-muslims treated now?[/quote]

From what I now, they are treated fairly and equally, just like muslim citizens. As long as they are law-abiding citizens everything is ok.

Pretty much like how Muslims are treated in a non-Muslim country (eg. USA). We are treated fairly and with respect.

[quote]
From what I now, they are treated fairly and equally, just like muslim citizens. As long as they are law-abiding citizens everything is ok.

Pretty much like how Muslims are treated in a non-Muslim country (eg. USA). We are treated fairly and with respect.[/quote]

False. A non-Muslim man can’t marry a Muslim woman.