I’m no expert but for me rack pulls work the back from ass to neck with just minor ham involvement. Maybe if you set the pins low for rack pulls and used the high handles on the trap bar they’d be similar, but otherwise they’re completely different movements.
[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
[quote]dnlcdstn wrote:
Rack pulls and trap deads are 80% the same thing. [/quote]
I cant agree at all unless youre starting the rack pull very low. Typically a rack pull is done right below the knee to knee height. My knees barely move when I do them. It places huge emphasis on the traps and erectors and forearms. The ROM for hamstrings is so short I consider it completely insignificant. [/quote]
i have to agree with BONEZ here… unless you do trap bar deads with your hands in front of you with the high handles? also, may just be me, using a neutral grip does relatively nothing for my upper back compared to a pronated grip
[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
Typically a rack pull is done right below the knee to knee height. My knees barely move when I do them. It places huge emphasis on the traps and erectors and forearms.[/quote]
question… at the top of the concentric do you shrug and/or pull the shoulder blades together?
[quote]MAF14 wrote:
[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
Typically a rack pull is done right below the knee to knee height. My knees barely move when I do them. It places huge emphasis on the traps and erectors and forearms.[/quote]
question… at the top of the concentric do you shrug and/or pull the shoulder blades together?
[/quote]
Shoulder blades should be retracted throughout the movement. I dont shrug the weight at the top.
[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
[quote]MAF14 wrote:
[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
Typically a rack pull is done right below the knee to knee height. My knees barely move when I do them. It places huge emphasis on the traps and erectors and forearms.[/quote]
question… at the top of the concentric do you shrug and/or pull the shoulder blades together?
[/quote]
Shoulder blades should be retracted throughout the movement. I dont shrug the weight at the top. [/quote]
alright thanks. i’m gonna give that a try next time around
[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
[quote]MAF14 wrote:
[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
Typically a rack pull is done right below the knee to knee height. My knees barely move when I do them. It places huge emphasis on the traps and erectors and forearms.[/quote]
question… at the top of the concentric do you shrug and/or pull the shoulder blades together?
[/quote]
Shoulder blades should be retracted throughout the movement. I dont shrug the weight at the top. [/quote]BONEZ, what rep range and how many sets do you usually have for rack pulls?
[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
[quote]MAF14 wrote:
[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
Typically a rack pull is done right below the knee to knee height. My knees barely move when I do them. It places huge emphasis on the traps and erectors and forearms.[/quote]
question… at the top of the concentric do you shrug and/or pull the shoulder blades together?
[/quote]
Shoulder blades should be retracted throughout the movement. I dont shrug the weight at the top. [/quote]
why should the shoulder blades be retracted throughout???
[quote]maraudermeat wrote:
[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
[quote]MAF14 wrote:
[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
Typically a rack pull is done right below the knee to knee height. My knees barely move when I do them. It places huge emphasis on the traps and erectors and forearms.[/quote]
question… at the top of the concentric do you shrug and/or pull the shoulder blades together?
[/quote]
Shoulder blades should be retracted throughout the movement. I dont shrug the weight at the top. [/quote]
why should the shoulder blades be retracted throughout???[/quote]
I don’t think I could keep mine retracted at the bottom of the lift at max weight… Probably tear something…
Usually, I just pull my shoulder blades together at lockout, then release them and go back down again… That’s just me though.
[quote]themilkman wrote:
My goals:
I’m trying to get a bigger conventional DL. The trap bar DLs DO seem to work my legs more, I can tell because I have an old knee injury that acts up a bit after a day of trap bar DLs. This is not really a good thing. It’s sounding like rack pulls may be a better route for me.[/quote]
Personally I found rackpulls had very little carry over to conventional deadlifts. I did them primarily to thicken the upper back starting at just below the knees. IMHO if you want a bigger deadlift you’ve got to train the deadlift unless you are really advanced, moving serious weight and then have a specific sticking point.
[quote]Bear943 wrote:
[quote]themilkman wrote:
My goals:
I’m trying to get a bigger conventional DL. The trap bar DLs DO seem to work my legs more, I can tell because I have an old knee injury that acts up a bit after a day of trap bar DLs. This is not really a good thing. It’s sounding like rack pulls may be a better route for me.[/quote]
Personally I found rackpulls had very little carry over to conventional deadlifts. I did them primarily to thicken the upper back starting at just below the knees. IMHO if you want a bigger deadlift you’ve got to train the deadlift unless you are really advanced, moving serious weight and then have a specific sticking point.[/quote]
it really depends on where you are pulling from on a rack pull. if it’s above the knee, i find it has little carry over to a full ROM dead. if it’s midshin, i find that is the best supplemental movement for the full ROM dead. most people’s sticking point is somewhere in the midshin area. starting from there is a real bitch not having the momentum from the floor. i’m also a lot weaker pulling from midshin than full ROM because of that .
unfortunately most people set the bar above the knee and it becomes an ego lift.
[quote]maraudermeat wrote:
[quote]Bear943 wrote:
[quote]themilkman wrote:
My goals:
I’m trying to get a bigger conventional DL. The trap bar DLs DO seem to work my legs more, I can tell because I have an old knee injury that acts up a bit after a day of trap bar DLs. This is not really a good thing. It’s sounding like rack pulls may be a better route for me.[/quote]
Personally I found rackpulls had very little carry over to conventional deadlifts. I did them primarily to thicken the upper back starting at just below the knees. IMHO if you want a bigger deadlift you’ve got to train the deadlift unless you are really advanced, moving serious weight and then have a specific sticking point.[/quote]
it really depends on where you are pulling from on a rack pull. if it’s above the knee, i find it has little carry over to a full ROM dead. if it’s midshin, i find that is the best supplemental movement for the full ROM dead. most people’s sticking point is somewhere in the midshin area. starting from there is a real bitch not having the momentum from the floor. i’m also a lot weaker pulling from midshin than full ROM because of that .
unfortunately most people set the bar above the knee and it becomes an ego lift.
[/quote]
Thanks for your insight. I personally don’t see the point of having the bar above the knees as well. The bar bends too much with appreciable weight making the ROM ridiculously short. Btw seen your videos, you are ridiculously strong.
[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
[quote]maraudermeat wrote:
[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
[quote]MAF14 wrote:
[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
Typically a rack pull is done right below the knee to knee height. My knees barely move when I do them. It places huge emphasis on the traps and erectors and forearms.[/quote]
question… at the top of the concentric do you shrug and/or pull the shoulder blades together?
[/quote]
Shoulder blades should be retracted throughout the movement. I dont shrug the weight at the top. [/quote]
why should the shoulder blades be retracted throughout???[/quote]
I don’t think I could keep mine retracted at the bottom of the lift at max weight… Probably tear something…
Usually, I just pull my shoulder blades together at lockout, then release them and go back down again… That’s just me though.
[/quote]
If you had 200lbs on the bar youd certainly be able to keep your shoulder blades retracted. THings change when you get into the 5,6, 700lb range.
SOmeone asking this sort of question clearly isnt moving huge weights. So I dont think its inappropriate to instill rudimentary advice regarding form to keep a tight upper body.
Im 100% sure you keep your upper body tight at the beginning of the pull (without having to consciously focus on it), regardless if your shoulder blades are retracted or not. Someone new to rack pulling wont intuitively keep a tight upper back. Jerking the weight up with loose shoulder blades is risky IMO.
I think it makes perfect sense to TRY to keep the shoulders blades pulled back until the weights become so large that it becomes impossible. But by that point the rest of the musculature in the area will also be significantly stronger to reduce the risk of injury from having loose shoulders.
[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
[quote]maraudermeat wrote:
[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
[quote]MAF14 wrote:
[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
Typically a rack pull is done right below the knee to knee height. My knees barely move when I do them. It places huge emphasis on the traps and erectors and forearms.[/quote]
question… at the top of the concentric do you shrug and/or pull the shoulder blades together?
[/quote]
Shoulder blades should be retracted throughout the movement. I dont shrug the weight at the top. [/quote]
why should the shoulder blades be retracted throughout???[/quote]
I don’t think I could keep mine retracted at the bottom of the lift at max weight… Probably tear something…
Usually, I just pull my shoulder blades together at lockout, then release them and go back down again… That’s just me though.
[/quote]
If you had 200lbs on the bar youd certainly be able to keep your shoulder blades retracted. THings change when you get into the 5,6, 700lb range.
SOmeone asking this sort of question clearly isnt moving huge weights. So I dont think its inappropriate to instill rudimentary advice regarding form to keep a tight upper body.
Im 100% sure you keep your upper body tight at the beginning of the pull (without having to consciously focus on it), regardless if your shoulder blades are retracted or not. Someone new to rack pulling wont intuitively keep a tight upper back. Jerking the weight up with loose shoulder blades is risky IMO.
I think it makes perfect sense to TRY to keep the shoulders blades pulled back until the weights become so large that it becomes impossible. But by that point the rest of the musculature in the area will also be significantly stronger to reduce the risk of injury from having loose shoulders. [/quote]
the reason i asked that question is because i deadlift with my shoulders rounded forward. as a powerlifter it reduces the ROM but from a safety standpoint the shoulder girdle doesn’t move at all in this position. trying to maintain retracted shoulder blades will lead to the loosness you are talking about. they will ineviteable end up rounded as the weight gets heavier and then you will see the shrug motion some people do at the end of a deadlift. that is a wasted motion that can lead to injury.
I have been using my trap-bar (hammersmith made,25 bucks 
for more than 3 years and -IMO- it’s a very safe way to hammer legs and lowrback without any risk.
it’s a squat-lift more than a DL,quads are pretty much involved,tall guys -who could have problem in heavy squatting-will love them…
its also -very IMO- the best lifting excercise for linemen as it works very good legs,lower back,traps,buttocks and -again- lower back pain&risk free.
good also for Romanian DL(hammies).
btw,TB and RP are two different animals.
Mikael
[quote]dnlcdstn wrote:
I think trap bar deads are superior b/c more weight can be used. The angle of traditional deads seems to hit my lower traps and lats more though. I guess it depends on the goal. Athletic endeavors = trap bar.
Edit: same muscle groups worked.[/quote]
You can use more weight on Trap Bar Deads than Rack Pulls?
[quote]maraudermeat wrote:
[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
[quote]maraudermeat wrote:
[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
[quote]MAF14 wrote:
[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
Typically a rack pull is done right below the knee to knee height. My knees barely move when I do them. It places huge emphasis on the traps and erectors and forearms.[/quote]
question… at the top of the concentric do you shrug and/or pull the shoulder blades together?
[/quote]
Shoulder blades should be retracted throughout the movement. I dont shrug the weight at the top. [/quote]
why should the shoulder blades be retracted throughout???[/quote]
I don’t think I could keep mine retracted at the bottom of the lift at max weight… Probably tear something…
Usually, I just pull my shoulder blades together at lockout, then release them and go back down again… That’s just me though.
[/quote]
If you had 200lbs on the bar youd certainly be able to keep your shoulder blades retracted. THings change when you get into the 5,6, 700lb range.
SOmeone asking this sort of question clearly isnt moving huge weights. So I dont think its inappropriate to instill rudimentary advice regarding form to keep a tight upper body.
Im 100% sure you keep your upper body tight at the beginning of the pull (without having to consciously focus on it), regardless if your shoulder blades are retracted or not. Someone new to rack pulling wont intuitively keep a tight upper back. Jerking the weight up with loose shoulder blades is risky IMO.
I think it makes perfect sense to TRY to keep the shoulders blades pulled back until the weights become so large that it becomes impossible. But by that point the rest of the musculature in the area will also be significantly stronger to reduce the risk of injury from having loose shoulders. [/quote]
the reason i asked that question is because i deadlift with my shoulders rounded forward. as a powerlifter it reduces the ROM but from a safety standpoint the shoulder girdle doesn’t move at all in this position. trying to maintain retracted shoulder blades will lead to the loosness you are talking about. they will ineviteable end up rounded as the weight gets heavier and then you will see the shrug motion some people do at the end of a deadlift. that is a wasted motion that can lead to injury.
[/quote]
Looking at my videos it seems like my shoulders arent pulled at all. I guess I just assumed they were because I try to keep my upper back tight to prevent the jerking motion that ive seen happen at the beginning of a pull.
Thinking about it, maybe Id be able to pull more if I didnt try to stop my shoulders from falling forward
[quote]MeltedFace wrote:
[quote]dnlcdstn wrote:
I think trap bar deads are superior b/c more weight can be used. The angle of traditional deads seems to hit my lower traps and lats more though. I guess it depends on the goal. Athletic endeavors = trap bar.
Edit: same muscle groups worked.[/quote]
You can use more weight on Trap Bar Deads than Rack Pulls?[/quote]
Yea last time I done them. I can also rep out deads better than rack pulls. I don’t do rack pulls that often though. After this thread I think I may work them a little more regularly.
Rack pulls just don’t feel that good or safe to me.
I have a custom made trap (it is a lot longer than usual) but I have done a lot of lifting with it.
It is true that to some extent there is less stress on the lower back.
But I disagree that it is like a parallel squat , as you can choose to lift closer to a normal deadlifting style i.e. in a quarter squat.
If you choose to squat down deeper with it , there is definitely more quads involved.
But you can make it fairly close to a deadlift, if you want.
You can generally manage more weight with trap-bar rack pulls (or partial range trap bar deadlifts if you prefer.
Re the protacted shoulders Bolton mentioned that in his article on T-Nation . I try to lift this way, as I miss either on the floor or at mid-shin . I feel it encourages the proper lower back position too, which I really neglected to begin with.
I did trap bar deads (used 20kg plates to elevate my feet a bit more and get a better range) for a few months this year and found it provided some nice benefits to my front squat progression (doing these at the mo rather than back squats) rather than deads. I have found rack pulls (below knees) definitely helps my deadlift lockout and helps support most of my other upper back training (row based movements etc etc).
Personally I find rack pulls an extremely safe movement with more ‘crossover’ support to other exercises than trap deads. Trap deads are awfully comfortable (the easy out compared to a standard dead) and let me go heavy on good mornings in the same session (for the low back/hammie focus trap deads don’t give me).
FWIW my trap bar dead was up to 250kg x 2 (bit of a pause between reps, I’m a pussy and like to get set-up between reps) and my rack pull (below knee) most recently was 230kg x 3.
Anyways, just my 2c…
[quote]GluteusGigantis wrote:
I did trap bar deads (used 20kg plates to elevate my feet a bit more and get a better range) for a few months this year and found it provided some nice benefits to my front squat progression (doing these at the mo rather than back squats) rather than deads. I have found rack pulls (below knees) definitely helps my deadlift lockout and helps support most of my other upper back training (row based movements etc etc).
Personally I find rack pulls an extremely safe movement with more ‘crossover’ support to other exercises than trap deads. Trap deads are awfully comfortable (the easy out compared to a standard dead) and let me go heavy on good mornings in the same session (for the low back/hammie focus trap deads don’t give me).
FWIW my trap bar dead was up to 250kg x 2 (bit of a pause between reps, I’m a pussy and like to get set-up between reps) and my rack pull (below knee) most recently was 230kg x 3.
Anyways, just my 2c…
[/quote]
Do you find trap bar deadlifts work more the muscles that are used for front squats than for deadlifts? I used to do squats but when the weight got heavy my back couldn’t take it (I have a pretty screwed up spine) so I switched to front squats but now that I’m up to the weight I used to be back squatting my back is getting screwed up again. I’m thinking of switching to squats/deads using straps for DB’s at my side but I do RDL’s afterwards and don’t want it any more affected than front squats would. I feel like it would work my hams more and my grip as well but I can’t think of many alternatives.