I object!!!
I agree, anyone with a child knows how hard it is to get them to sleep. I cant stand it when someone comes driving through the neighborhood blasting their radio and wakes my kids up. Why do you have to do it so late at night?? I like the music but you dont have to show off your system.
First of all, avoid roids sucks.
Second, racial profiling is an epidemic in this country. I find it funny that you see nothing wrong with your behavior, but ignore your scope of vision - you only see people on the street, out and about - you certainly don’t have the opportunity or the desire to profile upper-middle class white alcoholics, pill poppers, and coke heads who beat their wives or children or generally raise them full of fear and anger.
I prescribe 3 doses of Aesop Rock, stat.
I don’t think racial profilling as bad as you say it is. But everyone profiles in there head, black white who ever. Its engrained in us to preceive things. If I know that every time the bell rings food will come, then the next time the bell rings there should be food. I know its a bad analogy but hey its all I could remember from my psyhcology class. Its a action responce type behavior. If all I ever see on the news is terriosts and muslims in the same sentence, then when I hear terriost I will automatically link them together. Remember the DC SNIPER. WE all said the crazy guy had to been a white guy. The news said it was a white guy. Thats profiling aint it? They where stopping white vans with white males in it. Hell I thought it was a white dude. Only white guys where crazy enough. Were we all wrong…yes. But most time it IS a white guy. When we heard that his demands was 10 million into a stolen credit card. my co-worker who is black, said he was a black person. That is racial profiling. But we all get those assumptions. Also you said that we should profile the rich upper class guys who drink heavily and then beat there wives. Its profiled pretty well on TV, watch Law and Order. Also they keep it quiet and to themselves. No one sees it, till its too far into it. What about muslims. I remember the Oklahoma building bombing. The news reported middle eastern terriosts. Sure they where wrong that time. But 9-11 they where correct to say middle easterns. Who here when they hear Terriosts think of a middle easterner? Who doesn’t, you try to deny it. But thats engrained into us also now. So to end it all…TUFF!
First of all, from all I can tell, Avoids Roids is a good guy who takes time to give good advice to a lot of people on this forum. I don’t always agree with him, but he’s straight up.
Secondly, from what you posted it seems you would support expanding police search-and-seizure powers to allow them to look inside private homes to make sure everything was going OK, rather than just have the police engaged in checking out behavior that is largely associated with criminal activity. Is that what you want? Perhaps you would like to allow the police to obtain check-purchase records at will for alcohol so they could proactively go after those presumptive alcoholics you’re talking about? Maybe to do random prescription checks too?
For me, given that police officers are a limited resource (i.e. we do not have unlimited budgets for law enforcement), it absolutely makes sense to have officers focus their attention on those who indicate via behavioral clues that they are more likely to engage in criminal activity. I find it amusing that people are at all surprised that people who try to look and act like thugs attract more attention than those who do not. Even Jesse Jackson himself has expressed the sentiment that he would be uncomfortable with the idea of a young, thuggishly dressed black male approaching him at night on the street. However, you can bet the Reverend Jackson would be far more comfortable seeing that same young black male approach if he were attired in professional attire – or even a pair of well fitting jeans and a cable-knit sweater.
If you’re saying people have the right to dress and behave as they see fit, you’re absolutely right. And they won’t be arrested for simply looking thuggish. But if they attract a sharper, more watchful eye from the authorities and inspire others to cross the street, they have no one to blame but themselves.
On a slight digression, I feel bad for cops. I mean, I hate it as much as the next guy when I get tagged for speeding, and I’ll curse about the “damn police” under my breath, but they can’t win on the whole racism issue. On the one hand, if they increase presence in the minority neighborhoods, and make more arrests and stops there, they’re accused of targeting minorities. If they pull out and focus units elsewhere, and then, heaven forbid, it takes longer for them to respond to calls in minority neighborhoods, or they want backup (because less-patrolled areas are more dangerous), they get tagged as racists for not caring about minority crime victims. A classic Catch-22.
Hey, char, my brother and I had this same conversation a few years ago. Although we didn’t pick Mozart, we found a great alternative. Let me paint the picture for you…
Friday night, a sleepy mid-Western town. The silence is shattered by the methodic, chode-tickling blast of some talentless hip-hopper, which builds in the distance from a sub-aural level to a tooth-rattling rhythm. Every wannabe ghetto thug is pimpin’ his 1992 Ford Rustang with rims, ground effects, wife-beaters, and pre-pubescent physique. The windows are shaking, the residents are annoyed. Over and over the cycle repeats itself as the “thugs” endlessly troll the 1.5 mile strip, the word “muthafucka” ringing in the ears of the elderly for the umpteenth weekend.
Suddenly, as if sent from Heaven, a black Suburban emerges from the alley, and a glorious new sound shakes the air. It is the Ewoks, celebrating the defeat of the Empire, singing praises in their gibberish language at the full Chevrolet stock volume. I hope you can summon up an image of this song, and I also hope you can picture the thugs’ faces as this joyful vehicle hove into view.
My brother and I made the pass over and over, with nary a smile or hint of excitement (except for the blood dripping from our ears). We calmly visited the thug-hangout gas station, casually filled up with the music at top volume, and returned to our patrol. Once we had established our “thug dominance”, we went home. I don’t know if we managed to squelch the stupidity with our festive music. However, we made several return runs on subsequent weekends with the theme from “Somewhere in Time”, “Gettysburg”, and “The Last of the Mohicans”, but had to toss in the hat when the speakers finally blew out.
For the record, yes, we were VERY bored, but it was VERY funny.
Avoid Roids is an antagonist, pure and simple, as far as I have seen (in the context of the off-topic forum only), I can’t respect that. I don’t curse the “damn conservatives” before every statement I make, I don’t need to rely on ignorant generalizations to back up a point I argue - I do so with information, rationality, and most importantly - humility - listening to what others have to say, and evaluating my own stance in light of their opinions.
Second, I too sympathize with police. I have an incredible amount of respect for the job that many, many officers do every day. However, this does not cover up some very disturbing facts about racial profiling in this country, a subject I researched and wrote on throughout college. I won’t go over the information here, it is readily available on the web and through major news publications - simply put, racial profiling is a problem throughout this country, especially in cities. Is it simply a matter of appearance (thug-like, etc.)? No, even controlling for this variable, it still appears that blacks and latinos are pulled over, stopped, searched, and most importantly CHARGED with crimes in a disporportionate ratio to their actual activities. A black man driving a Mercedes is 900% more likely to be pulled over than a white man driving one. Examples like this abound. And unfortunately, a VERY WEAK citizen oversight system in most cities.
Look, I’m not a bleeding heart, but I am a social liberal - I believe that people who have less resources to defend themselves (low-income, minorities) are often the target of abuse - there are far less reprecussions from harrassing young blacks in a low-income area than young rich whites in the burbs, although all are listening to Eminem and dressing like thugs. What are the answers? I don’t know. But to ignore the problem and blame it on superficial qualities like music and dress ignores the epidemic and disturbing trend underneath.
Thats my two cents, anyhow. I’d love to hear more opinions.
Damn, I didn’t realize that I hit such a chord with that post. Okay, lemme think about it. I just might video-tape something - if I can find someone crazy enough to risk life and limb filming me while I cruise wit da classics.
Maybe this would be worth a T-mag leather jacket…?
Actually, from a logical perspective, it seems to me that what should be analyzed is the ratio of stops to arrests, and then that should again be analyzed against a conviction rate. Only then would you begin to discern whether the number of stops is “disproportionate” to the activities of those stopped.
BTW, I haven’t seen your numbers for your surveys, but I’m dubious about just how “alike” the stops may be, and just how the people went about controlling for “thuggishness.” For instance, if one only took the number of white Mercedes owners and the number of black owners, and then compared the number of stops, one might come up with your 900% figure. However, I suspect that if they controlled for the age of the driver (a lot of old white folks own Mercedes), and, more importantly, the neighborhood in which the car was driving, the new number would look far less egregious.
Simply looking at the likeliehood of arrest or detainment in and of itself ignores one very inconvenient fact: minorities tend to commit a disproportionate share of the crimes. Or if you insist on saying it the long way: We know that poor, disadvantaged people from single-parent households are more likely to commit crimes, and statistically minorities are more likely to be poor, disadvantaged, and from single-parent households. Therefore minorities are more likely to commit crimes.
This is of course a generalization. However, when you deal with the public at large, as the police do, you must deal with generalizations, because you don’t have the resources to dig into the facts of each individual case.
In order to protect the public, the police must pay closer attention to things that look more suspicious, which in many cases simply means checking in to things that do not fit into the normal pattern, such as white kids in nice cars driving through the ghetto (more likely to be buying drugs). The police act on limited information -- in order to be effective, they have to put their energies into investigating those people and/or activities that experience shows yeild a higher level of criminal activity.
Does this mean I believe it's OK to pull someone over simply on the basis of his race? No. But I do think the decision to pull someone over is based on much more than that. And then to charge him with something, the police, on the basis of that investigation, must find evidence of a crime -- otherwise the officers will have wasted their time and will get no conviction (and perhaps a discrimination lawsuit to boot).
The bottom line is that I don't think we have an epidemic problem with profiling in this country, and I don't think that simply because on average one can show that black or Latino males are more likely to be detained or charged shows that there is a problem -- in fact, it could just show the police are being effective. We wouldn't know until we checked the relative conviction rates.
Avoid Roids is an antagonist, pure and simple, as far as I have seen (in the context of the off-topic forum only), I can’t respect that. I don’t curse the “damn conservatives” before every statement I make, I don’t need to rely on ignorant generalizations to back up a point I argue - I do so with information, rationality, and most importantly - humility - listening to what others have to say, and evaluating my own stance in light of their opinions.
Second, I too sympathize with police. I have an incredible amount of respect for the job that many, many officers do every day. However, this does not cover up some very disturbing facts about racial profiling in this country, a subject I researched and wrote on throughout college. I won’t go over the information here, it is readily available on the web and through major news publications - simply put, racial profiling is a problem throughout this country, especially in cities. Is it simply a matter of appearance (thug-like, etc.)? No, even controlling for this variable, it still appears that blacks and latinos are pulled over, stopped, searched, and most importantly CHARGED with crimes in a disporportionate ratio to their actual activities. A black man driving a Mercedes is 900% more likely to be pulled over than a white man driving one. Examples like this abound. And unfortunately, a VERY WEAK citizen oversight system in most cities.
Look, I’m not a bleeding heart, but I am a social liberal - I believe that people who have less resources to defend themselves (low-income, minorities) are often the target of abuse - there are far less reprecussions from harrassing young blacks in a low-income area than young rich whites in the burbs, although all are listening to Eminem and dressing like thugs. What are the answers? I don’t know. But to ignore the problem and blame it on superficial qualities like music and dress ignores the epidemic and disturbing trend underneath.
In case it wasn’t clear, we actually did that 
Wow, I did’nt know my rant would turn into something that got such good insight and response. Boston B, You make some good points. And i go into how the state keeps track of our activities on my 2nd or 3rd post,with the innocent officer banging his head into a desk when faced with a I.A investigator with no common sense. The real people who get picked on are white kids driving nice cars through the hood. lol. They can count on gettin pulled 2 or 3 times before they can get turned around.
Sorry that the end of my last post repeated rumbach’s post – I had pasted it at the bottom of the box so I could refer to it as I wrote, and I forgot to cut it out when I posted. My bad.
Excellent Baby face, I cannot stand these punks who drive around with that shit cranked up.
I believe this behaviour is wrong. If somebody drives around with music to load and that is illegal in your state, city or county, fine ticket them. What I am hearing is that you look or act in a way that a paricular police officer does not like at the time, he has a right to harrass you and you can’t do a damn thing about it. Excuse me if I think that is wrong. Last I checked, it is not illegal to look, walk, talk etc. different from anybody else. The only time a police person should pay attention to these vehicals that are tricked out with loud stereos is when they break the law, or when their stereos are stolen. Of course, having experienced this myself, the police will tell there is nothing they can do about your stolen stereo, because they don’t care. They are obviously more concerned with what your car looks like and how you walk versus whether a crime has been commited or not.
Aren't there still alot of murders, break in's, theft, domestic violence, gang violence, out there? Why aren't the police more focus on that than a local punk who will probably grow up to be a productive person in society. I tell you what, when you guys solve every major crime in your perspective city, I will ensure that all the punks get concervative haircuts, drive Crown Vics, and walk like a marine. Until then, quit focusing on your pet peeves and get people who actually hurt other people, not people who look different. Like it or not, it is wrong to assume somebody is bad because they look a certain way.
I used to work with teenagers who were into tricked out cars and wearing jeans 35 sizes to large. I would say the vast majority of them were really kind and gracious people. It didn't take alot to get to know them, all you have to do is talk to them like they are people, they respond in kind.
A little anecdote: One time my wife, son, and I were broke down in a piece of shit Saturn at a Chili's. Many "respectable" people walked by and did not say a word execpt "excuse me" refering to my open door preventing them from getting to their car by the most convenient route. Two different sets of punk looking teenagers were walking by at different times and both of them offered their help and asked if there was anything they can do for us. These are these "punks" blasting bitches and ho's over their stereos.
The message: you police people have weild a lot of power with that badge. The citizens should respect that power, but you should respect it more. Do not use it unwisely. Do not use it based on rash judgment, do not use it to pursue personal bias. It is wrong. Maybe next time you pull somebody over for a loud offensive radio, take 5 minutes to talk to them like human beings, you may find that behind the clothes, walk, car and stereo, there maybe decant people out there. Not evil people waiting to perpetuate the next crime.
All my cars are customized. Is that against the law? It sure seems like it, by the amount of times I get pulled over. Am I a gangster, no! Do I have 160db of Bass thumping from my trunk, no!
It seems to me my cars do get a lot of attention. A lot of it positive, some negative. It's a shame that the negative attention comes from being tailgated for over 3 mins by the patrol officer, before the flashing lights come on. Within those 3 mins, he has had the time to receive feedback from my registration plate on where I live, if the vehicle has been stolen, and to have established that i'm driving within the vicinity of where I live...yet I still get pulled over. What is his F**&in problem?
Does the type of car I drive determine my profile? No? When I drive my impala, cops follow me, when I drive my Lexus, they don't. Why should that be?
I'm not a cop hater, because some of them are truly nice people, but profiling is WRONG.
Imagine a world where the police had the power to have you 'stopped and searched' based on your muscular size. Is that an effective way to capture steroid dealers? Of course not! This ideal is far fetched, but that's what these cops are doing with people who look 'thuggish'.
I have stated my thoughts on the subject so I wont go into that agian, BUT a lot of car modifications are in fact illegal, way more than you might think, cant lower a car if the fender is 18inches from the ground, certain exhaust mods etc. It may be different from state to state, but I know in St. Louis, even some taillights mods a are a no no in some districts, are the laws enforced? Not really. But being ignorant of the law isnt going to help someone in court.
Don’t your cops have to ask to search your car?
RCMP asks to look in the trunk and you say 'no' then they can't do a fucking thing.
Making judgments based on appearance is human nature. We evolved and thrived because we did just that. While it may have some drawbacks in these modern times, it is still something that is ingrained in us and we would be hard pressed to change it. I’m not saying that racial profiling is right or wrong, I’m simply pointing out that this type of behavior is rooted in millions of years of evolution.
The cops can ask to look in the trunk, if we deny the request that is grounds for suspicious behavior and can haul us in and impound the car to be searched, I would assume that your officers can do the same.