Race..Culture..Non pc Question

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]limburg wrote:
Ah, but if the state sanctioned opinion is wrong, do I just shut up and color? [/quote]

Of course!

This is about the overarching theme that our wise and benevolent overlordsw are always right and have our best interest in mind.

Subversive use of indiviual brain power can and will not be tolerated, after all you are a mere mortal and they have experts.

Panels of experts even.

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Wow! How did that Kool-ade taste?

Bump

And notice that several of you here, trod this uneven ground in the past

I’m reading through this. Thanks for the bump, Treco.

Worth the book recommendation. I’m going to have to read Guns, Germs and Steel: The Fate of Human Societies.

@Cortes - Just trying to ring you up. Are you lurking us at all? You’re missed.

@smh_23, I know you’ve been taking a break since the election, but you need to come back. I saw that you at least logged in, maybe ordering protein powder but I looked! I want to get into history and foreign affairs more in 2017. It would be good to be able to talk to you. PS, the old avatar is better. I’m assuming the new format made you slightly switch your username? It seems like that happened to a few people.

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Hey Puff.
I put this in the other thread, but don’t think anyone read it.
I’m not a believer of apes to man evolution. But I find this subtle change within a species as plausible. Ex tall crossed with tall begins to create more talls in height until it starts becoming fixed as the trait.

Hey, thanks treco. I’m part way through the Time article. I’ll come back to this with more thoughts. It’s just a fascinating topic.

In terms of culture and biology, @EyeDentist said, [quote=“EyeDentist, post:1363, topic:223365”]
Put simply, when comparative genetic studies are done, there is vastly more variation within so-called races than there is between them.
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So much of what we see is socioeconomic and cultural. We have close friends next door who are of Chinese ancestry. Their children have tons of shared experiences with my kids, and we share similar income and educational levels. They have more in common with my children than with any kids raised in China, and my kids have more in common with them than they would some poor white kids from Appalachia. That would be true on all kinds of dimensions.

We could take me and @MoreMuscle. We’ve both been to graduate school, work in the helping professions, like BBing, like talking politics. Lets guess that we both have middle-class backgrounds. I may have much more in common with him in terms of worldview, intelligence, a number of factors than I would have with a poor white woman from Appalachia, and he might be more like me than he would be like a poor, uneducated black man raised in a Chicago housing project. That would be true about all kinds of things, right?

I just bring these examples up because we talk about the female experience, or the Black experience, or whatever. These subgroups, as if they share certain views or traits. The geology department wants an African-American perspective, or a female perspective. What that perspective is exactly is unclear to me, since we vary so much within groups. If they are implying that I think about sedimentary rock in uniquely feminine ways, I’d like to know what that means.

I wanted to read the entire article before I responded. Interesting article for sure…You’re probably right, we likely have more in common with each other than with the respective examples you named. Those two people (A poor white woman from Appalachia and a poor black man from Chicago) likely have more in common with each other as well…but political tactics such as the Southern Strategy were instrumental in splitting the poor Blacks and Whites from uniting against the upper middle class --which led to The Great Migration and many of the prejudices and biases we currently exhibit. Even if we have a ton in common, if you or I are terribly prejudice against one another, we will never co-exist successfully, which is one reason why integration failed. If we fail to acknowledge one another’s individual experiences - (which continues to happen regularly today whenever we dismiss complaints of sexism, racism, etc without any sort of investigation) we will never co-exist successfully.

It seems SJW’s have swung the pendulum in the other direction where they are terribly biased, and prejudice against conservative white men and anyone that wont roll over to their message. While I can understand an extreme response to extreme circumstances, ultimately it continues to divide us into our respective echo chambers. I

You’re right on here. When one group takes a monolithic view to another…we once again dismiss each individual experience. Psychology shows that when we first meet people, we initially judge them based off the schema or stereotype we have in our minds.

For example: In college I had a teammate in who grew up in a pretty segregated area and upper middle class. He told me I wasn’t Black…I said "Why? Because I don’t sag my pants, slur my speech, and had like “gangsta?” He had no idea what to say, and shut down. This pre-conceived notion prevents any sort of relationship from being built.

It can work in the opposite direction as well…when I first started working at my current hospital, which covers a ton of cancer patients that are 80+ years old, I would let thoughts creep into my mind of “what if this patient is racist and doesn’t want to talk to me?” which ultimately could have affected how I treated that patient. But once again, we vary heavily between groups

Ultimately I think when people want a “different perspective” it is an effort to avoid the group-think that takes place in homogeneous groups. In my opinion, different groups of people take different approaches to solving problems - but I have no clue how to demonstrate this objectively. I think you can notice this in your personal relationships with your spouse. Why wouldn’t you want to extrapolate that to the workplace?

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Thanks for such a thoughtful post. I enjoyed reading your thoughts so much. Please do not imagine that I think we are post-racial. [quote=“MoreMuscle, post:74, topic:161524”]
If we fail to acknowledge one another’s individual experiences - (which continues to happen regularly today whenever we dismiss complaints of sexism, racism, etc without any sort of investigation) we will never co-exist successfully.

It seems SJW’s have swung the pendulum in the other direction where they are terribly biased, and prejudice against conservative white men and anyone that wont roll over to their message. While I can understand an extreme response to extreme circumstances, ultimately it continues to divide us into our respective echo chambers. I
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That was a very nice way of putting that.

Thanks. That’s very true.

I see some generational differences in attitudes just looking back a couple of generations. I know you see variations among people, and racism may be more prevalent in some pockets but these changes are hopeful. You expect more open attitudes from the younger generations. I see that in my own experience.

Yes. And there’s something legitimate in that, but sometimes we look at diversity based on these ideas of race or gender and ignore socioeconomic class. For example, I live in a very diverse neighborhood with a lot of very accomplished, high achieving people. Lets say we produce 15 kids from the local high school who all get into top tier schools. Let’s say they are distributed evenly according to gender. A couple are Black or Biracial, several Asian kids, a few kids with European ancestry, a couple kids from India or Pakistan, a couple of kids are Jewish, Hispanic. You get the idea. The colleges are telling themselves that they have a very diverse group of students. The truth is, they aren’t so diverse. Those kids are all part of a friend group where they share socioeconomic status and high parental educational achievement. They all know each other, and date each other within that group. If the idea of race is more of a social or cultural thing, these kids share a tremendous amount of cultural effects. None of these kids are coming from “disadvantaged groups” in that regard. They have very little in common with kids growing up in poverty. None of these kids have grown up with food stamps, etc… I know this isn’t everywhere, but that is the reality of my son’s high school years.

A gay friend of mine once told me “It’s a little bit like patting yourself on the back for having gay friends, when your gay friends are likely just like you in every way except sexual orientation.” Funny, but true.

“The race gap in education and achievement has been shrinking in America for 60 years, whereas the class gap has been rising, particularly since the 1980s. It is now twice as large as the black-white race gap, by some measures.” - Haidt.

With regard to biology, we continue to adapt and change according to environment. It becomes really hard to tease out what’s going on, but it’s just fascinating to see how very fast humans do evolve and change. The female brain undergoes measurable changes just in response to pregnancy hormones, or the medical student’s brain puts on more gray matter from studying intensely for a few months. It’s remarkable, and also a little bit scary. Of course kids who are growing up without proper nutrition, or who have homes where there is very little language or literacy will not develop to their potential, and over time humans certainly change and evolve in response to these kinds of conditions. This kind of thing is concerning and it effects poor kids regardless of race.

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Oh, I forgot this!

Some of this drives me a little crazy because the people on the far left want to emphasize group identity over the individual, all while telling us that there are no really biological differences between these groups. There’s no biological reason that women aren’t in STEM fields with parity to men, for example. We’ve seen Scandinavian countries encourage that for many years and they still have a gap there, so it’s interesting and it’s hard for us to see the effects of culture vs biology. The part that bothers me is the feminist rational that my brain is just like yours in terms of aptitude, intelligence, etc… Nothing that I can’t do equally as well, right? BUT I have some uniquely feminine perspective or way of thinking that is really valuable if we want diversity. My status as part of an oppressed group gives me some special knowledge. It’s a little weird to see this argued both ways. We see the same thing with regard to race, considering what we were talking about with regard to within group differences.

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When someone joins a religion is it a reflection of hard coded genetic behaviors?

Will a naturally violent person find themselves more attracted to Islam?

Will a pacifist tend towards Buddhism?

Will a man who will never be satisfied with monogamy find mormonism attractive?

I love having conversations like these so I’m more than happy to talk with you…and you’re making me rack my brain a little bit as we explore this rabbit hole. Maybe some other perspectives will chime in.

No I think this is very accurate and I overlooked it. I’m not sure how rectify something like that. What we find right now is funding schools in poor areas with more money than rich or suburbian areas does not lead to better testing outcomes. But when we talk about the evolutionary aspect, it leads me back to the comparison of Malthusian England to Industrial Revolution England.

When your family has been in poverty for years generally you’re not focused on doing well in school, you’re trying to survive.
There is research out now that shows living in poverty makes you more likely to make poor long term decisions to feel better in the short term.

I see this in my little brother sadly, he is married, has a child, recently moved back into my parents’ house. Prior to moving out of his apartment, he and his wife (who are both 21 year old, middle managers at McDonald’s and make 10.50ish an hour) bought a new jeep. His rationalization ‘we don’t have to pay rent so I can buy this’ when they already had 1 car payment and a truck that had 190k miles on it but was running just fine. I’m like WTF. But he consistently makes decisions like this.

LOL makes sense to me. I’m the only Black person in my Dept. and 1 of 2 males. I don’t think they treat me any differently and I was offered the job before applying but do you think they go to Dept meetings and say “We are diverse!” because of me? probably haha. Meanwhile I’m not that different as you said.

There are a lot of factors that play into this. Is the class gap widening because of the shift in our economy, and increases in automation?
Or are people simply lazier, more dependant on the system, not working?
Lastly, what impact does our current levels of illegal immigration have on it?

I really don’t know the answer. And studies show that illegals coming in essentially keep prices lower and take jobs Americans don’t want to work, but damn if all those Americans took those jobs, what would the gap look like?
I’d like to think an increase in automation has an impact as well. I really don’t know about #2…but it is a narriative you hear from time to time.

Biology is definitely scary in that aspect. But, I wonder if I see it playing out in my family right now. 2 out of 3 of my Uncles on my mom’s side are pretty well off, along with my Grandad who was a Vet, retired from the Army as an E9, and retired from Dupont while also pastoring at a Church. He also gets a check from the VA for Agent Orange Induced Parkinsons. They all came from pretty poor beginnings and now just buy shit if it’s “on sale.”

My Grandad is literally towards the end of his life and is just buying clothes and things. If you come from an upper middle class family, or upper class, they would be investing in stocks and property to pass on to the following generation. But I hypothesize that our family coming from poverty in rural VA has had that sort of biological effect, moving from a place of scarcity to abundance. My mom and my other uncle don’t have that consumerism habit, but also don’t make as much money…so that could say…they just have poor financial habits, but it is interesting to ponder.

I see what you’re saying, and I agree that I believe women can do absolutely anything a man can. I tend to lean more towards culture and socialization vs. biology in that aspect.
Why don’t we give little girls snap together circuit boards? Why do little black boys idolize basketball and football players vs people like Neil DeGrasse Tyson?
I feel like when society reinforces the message that “you should be this”, or “you’re supposed to be that” it becomes internalized. Then when you venture out into the real world and see this reflected, it shapes your reality.

If we grew up in a world where women ran the STEM fields and men were 95% of nurses it would be the exact same dilemma. So our job now is to create environments like the ones the Scandinavian countries have even with the gap still there. Ultimately it’s a long-term game vs short-term. Our cultural paradigms have shifted rapidly in the past 50-60 years from the father that works, the mother that is the homemaker, etc. It will only progress forward, if we have open minded people that encourage it.

In terms of the unique perspective as a person of an oppressed group…that is an interesting stance to take. We’re the same but I have a unique perspective - definition of cognitive dissonance lol. Once again, I’m not sure how to verbalize it, and maybe it’s all just crap? Maybe diversity is there simply to encourage opportunity for everyone in a society where White Men own most of the businesses.

It kind of reminds me of the two sides of affirmative action - some people believe you are lowering the bar to allow oppressed groups in – while others (like myself) believe you are providing opportunities where they were previously prevented from access.

Research reflects that people who are hired via AA don’t perform any worse than those who are hired normally but still the stigma remains (he/she just got the job because of AA - that diversity/perspective quota)…which basically undermines that person’s expertise and credibility.

It is weird to see it argued both ways…and the far left will say “well if you’re against diversity you’re racist or sexist etc.” Rather than say, if we are all the same, then there is no reason to value one group vs another.

But my last point, it is a relatively new problem. Most African, Asian, Middle Eastern and
,Eastern European countries are all homogenous groups already. Diversity is not as large of an issue – outside of the male:female ratio in the workplace.

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As to “joining” or religious conversion I don’t know. Lots of people convert to a new religion because they marry someone of another faith, that sort of thing. Talking from a purely social science perspective here, not as someone with religious faith. There are multiple theories about why religious behavior occurs, and evolves in the world. Some are focused on individual religious behavior, and maybe fewer are focused on group dynamics. I don’t know much about the psychology of religion related to conversion. In general, I’ll go with Durkheim who said that religion is a way for people who do not share kinship bonds to establish community. That’s actually quite profound when you think of it.

That might depend on what version of Islam a person is exposed. Radical Islamic groups like ISIS look pretty different to me than the thousands of Persian immigrants who have been living in peace in my area since the time of the Shah. I have many Muslim friends and neighbors.

We’ve had lots of people motivated by peace look at Eastern religions and meditation, so this wouldn’t surprise me at all. I’m not Buddhist but I have kept Batchelor’s Buddhism Without Beliefs on my nightstand or desktop for years, and I started attending a Buddhist meditation practice last fall because I wanted to learn how to meditate and was having trouble on my own. People are drawn to Eastern philosophies, and Western religions for lots of reasons.

If so, he’s more than 125 years too late, Raj! Not everyone has a lot of exposure to Mormons, so I’ll give just a bit of history here. The LDS practice of polygamy involved a small percentage of members from the early 1840s until 1890. FYI, during the 1800’s there were more than 200 religious groups in the US attempting various types of communal living, holding property in common, attempting to care for the poor, and so forth. The Shakers and the Oneida community are two notable examples. Back to polygamy, from the 1860s to the 1880s, the US began passing law to make this religious practice illegal. These laws were eventually upheld by the U.S. Supreme Court, and the church complied with the law. We are a law abiding people.

FYI, some of my ancestors fleeing for their lives across the Rocky Mountains had much less to do with polygamy, than with a large influx of Northerners and people from the UK and Scandinavia moving into slave states and creating a voting block that threatened local political sentiments. There are still a few fringe groups who practice polygamy, but they are no longer part of the LDS church.

In answer to your question, I think very few people would seek that out, since there are far easier, more socially acceptable ways to have multiple partners without the sacrifice that would go along with joining a fringe communal religious group. You could ask Hugh Hefner. Ha!

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Thanks so much for the thoughtful post, and for giving some personal background. Please know I’m thinking about it. That deserves more than a couple of sentences so I’ll come back when I have more time. If we can figure this out, we should get the Nobel Peace Prize. I like it when people will just be themselves here. It helps us put our experiences into context. Ha!

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Agree in part, but from my standpoint as a more conservative white male I am not sure how much flows into a truly “extreme response” vs. just not wanting to talk with people who will deride me as “human trash” (real phrase) for having a different political perspective and beliefs from them.

Frankly I have too many things in my life to want to waste time on people like that, so they earn a “Fuck you”.

In some ways it reminds me of MLK vs Malcolm X. MLK stirred racial tensions, but in a way that put the goal, the message, and the putcome at the center. Malcolm X–to my mind anyway–stirred tensions but in a way that detracted from conversation.

I’d be interested in your unique perspective on X and MLK because X has always troubled me even as he’s been looked up to by many.

Thanks for coming to PWI because you have a thoughtful new perspective and I very much value it and enjoy reading it. It makes me think, which is what I want.

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This is very interesting to hear you post on, and is something I have consodered for a while

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Thank you for thinking so heavily on it as well…I know it takes me at least a 3 hours of typing, doing other stuff, and coming back to it, to figure this all out.

The first Nobel Peace Prize awarded to online message board posters…I’m down haha!

Be yourself? Isn’t it easier to just wear a mask? :wink:

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I agree wholeheartedly with this. People can’t take you seriously when you cry bigotry at every turn. I don’t blame you I wouldn’t waste my time either. I do think there are big disconnects between the two demographics however. For example: If you don’t get a job you apply for, or don’t even get an interview, you would probably think “Well I just wasn’t good enough, or damn there must have been better applicants.” My friend (whose name is Cra’Tisha but goes by Tisha and puts Tisha on her resume) has a Master’s degree in Graphic Design from Clemson and struggled to find a job for like 4-6 months shortly after finishing school. When she doesn’t get an interview, or doesn’t get a job she interviewed for she also thinks “Well I wasn’t good enough” or “damn there were better applicants.” But then she also has those thoughts creep into her mind of “What if they didn’t chose me because I was Black?” or “They thought my name was ‘too Black’ or ‘too ghetto’ and didn’t interview me.” Because multiple studies have found that people with “Black sounding names” don’t get interviewed as much as those with “White sounding names.”

These are the sort of things we deal with internally…but ultimately never know what caused us to not get the interview or get the job…and this can be extrapolated to many walks of life. This is why encouraging and teaching Entrepreneurship will solve a lot of problems in our community, because we tend to hire people who remind us of ourselves.

As we continue to progress forward…hopefully this won’t be as much of a problem.

I think they were fighting for the same thing, but in a different way. They were both fighting for better treatment for Black folks.
MLK – through integration and understanding that we are no different than you guys. He allied with whoever would ally with us, and derived his methods from Gandhi’s liberation of Indians from the Brits. Essentially, taking the moral high ground and then being sprayed with water hoses, having dogs bite you, being beaten by people relentlessly, shows that you’re not worthy of said treat mentioned because you don’t respond with violence. MLK also talked about cooperative economics some, and as he got closer to his death in 1968, was widely unpopular because of this - along with an increasingly more radical message. The Civil Rights Act was passed in 64 and people were like : “Why is he still mad?” but he understood that cooperative economics would be the only route to self-sufficiency and self-determinism. Many of the people who helped get the Civil Rights Act passed did not understand this, because they had just fought for the right to shop at White businesses and go to White Schools…now he’s talking about Black Businesses and Black Schools? wtf! This also scared the fuck out of J Edgar Hoover and the FBI, along with rumors he was a communist - which led to him infiltrating the movement and trying his best to destroy it. Ultimately his assassination made him a martyr but killed the movement.

Malcom X - Ah the beloved Malcom X. He was the “Nat Turner” of his day. I think what troubled people about him was the phrase “By Any Means Necessary.”
Malcolm X and The Nation of Islam were prepared to defend themselves and their communities with weapons similar to The Black Panthers…and this scared the crap out of White People and J Edgar Hoover’s FBI…but if you look at Rural White Guys, they all have guns, and hold down places like Ruby Ridge and that Wildlife Refuge in Oregon to this day…

http://www.cnn.com/2016/01/04/us/oregon-wildlife-refuge-protest/

At the time, there was still fear that Black people would revolt and attack Whites because of some deeply held grudge for Slavery, Jim Crow, etc.
But, you never saw people from The Nation of Islam or The Black Panthers just attack random White Folks like the KKK did to Black Folks…both groups truly wanted to create a Black Nation-State inside of the US…and J Edgar Hoover was like “Fuck That” thus COINTELPRO infiltrated and destroyed both of them. In fact, shortly before his death there is a statistic that over half of Malcolm X’s confidants were FBI informants.
He was about creating black communities and segregation by choice, similar to Chinese,Jewish, and Arab immigrants where they live amongst themselves, shop at their own businesses, educate their own children, and survive in a self-deterministic, self-sufficient fashion.

Unfortunately for us, J Edgar Hoover’s FBI was there mostly to prevent any possible uprising of any minority group (See the Native American liberation movement, Gay Right’s Movement, and the Chicano Movement)…I think mostly due to the fear of a push for communism by multiple groups uniting…but at that time, with the demographics of this country, every minority could have voted for a communist and you would have still needed over 50% of the White population to vote for that communist as well.

I admire Malcolm X and MLK for their courage and desire for empowerment, but MLK and integration ended up causing us to lose most of our businesses and institutions…at the price of integration. Prior to integration, there were massive Black Life Insurance companies, Many more Black-owned banks than the 14 that still exist today, and in general, more Black entrepreneurship, but once we were allowed to shop at White businesses our people assumed that those businesses were better (and many still do to this day sadly…) and stopped valuing entrepreneurship, helping your fellow man, creating your own jobs, etc…

Malcolm X was unapologetically Black…which encouraged people to not see themselves as solely descendants of slaves destined for a lifetime of poverty and subservience. I think that is important even today – where many Black Americans don’t know of any heritage prior to slavery and believe that we can’t do for ourselves without the democrats help. I also think the Nation of Islam today – is too radical in terms of their despise for “The White Man” and that Malcolm X was moving away from that prior to his assassination by Nation of Islam members. I don’t hate White people and I try my best not to have prejudice, but I do want Black Folks to succeed via their own will and be treated equally by the laws and institutions of this country, similar to Malcolm X’s views. We are still fighting for that.

I’m glad to be here, for the exact same reasons…the exchange of ideas and perspectives helps me understand the world and people opposing my views much better…if we could get everyone to do this, our country would be in a much better place regardless of how much we may disagree.

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Ok–yes. Very much so, and I agree with that. I think huge disconnects are absolutely central to the problems at hand because they are never talked THROUGH in ‘discussion mode’ with an eye towards understanding the other perspective…but are always talked AT (or yelled at) in an adversarial/political mode. I particularly agree with your description of that creeping thought in the back of your head about “what if”. Certainly. 100%.

Regarding the studies–I am equivocal on that. This is an aside because I know we are not arguing about them. Not so much equivocal because I disagree with the plausibility of the result or hypothesis, but because my job is/has been essentially research based (biochemistry) and I know exactly how flabby a lot of the social science “studies” can be–not that they are wrong per se, but not very resilient methodically. Lay people won’t know any of that–and it is somewhat of a dealbreaker to try to explain, sort of like trying to explain a long joke that nobody got. You get about the same reactions in both cases lol. Add on top of that the inherent “grayness” that is research in all fields.

I know you didn’t bring the link up in order make any argument and just did it to illustrate the issue. So, not a critique on the politifact link so much as my general observations of social science research in all areas.

Absolutely. Agree on both parts, and I really wish entrepreneurship and basic home accounting (like balancing check books or bank accounts) was mandatory in high schools.

Another aside–I think the tendency to hire/hang out/socialize/respect/talk with people who remind us of ourselves is an innate human quality. Not inherently bad (there are a lot of good reasons I want to talk with people like me, especially when it comes to being ‘in sync’), but certainly one that CAN be bad if we allow it to be. It leads very quickly down into echo chamber land, not to mention that being able to work collegially with people unlike ourselves is a necessary life skill!

Thanks VERY much for your take on MLK vs X. I always knew they were fighting for the same thing, and am pretty well read up on MLK, but Malcolm X always seemed…I dunno, adversarial (“The White Man” thing that you referenced). But I found your reply very thought provoking. I’ll have to think some more about this.

Totally, totally with you on all that. That’s why I’m asking the question to you, because when I go back and read and watch Malcolm, I get much more than that from him and it bothers me. Of course it’s hard to say whether it’s me or whatnot.

This is very thought provoking. I can see that happening. I wonder, personally, how much was the integration and how much was the rapid cultural change and upheaval of the late 60s/70s, Great Society, War on Drugs, and increasing single motherhood. In other words, valuing helping your fellow man, creating your own jobs, etc. to me is centered in a morality primarily rather than the results of integration. However, that is a very very interesting concept that I need to think about more.

Excellent deep-water post sir!

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Yes–and it’s frankly been a while since we had any intelligent views that differed from familiar old battle lines here. Mostly the ‘differing views’ end up being conspiracy theory minded or nearly so, or just naked partisanship. I’m not into either lol.

I read a quote a long time ago on conversation which I work on consistently making central to my interactions with people (however failingly executed):

“Most often in communication, the goal is agreement. But if our goal is agreement, then what happens when we disagree? I must persuade you to agree with me, or vice versa. But unfortunately, persuasion has a way of slipping into pressure, manipulation, and control…The First Goal of conversation is Understanding; not Agreement.” Danny Silk

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Haha…I follow you. It’s always easier to see results when you’re not blinded and social sciences, unless you’re in a setting like the Stanford experiment; i.e well controlled, you’re right…

You’d be surprised to know I actually have two biochemistry publications to my name :wink: I could never hold myself up to be someone such as yourself, but I did a little something.

The average financial literacy level in this country is dirt poor…agree wholeheartedly

Absolutely true.

[quote=“Aragorn, post:85, topic:161524”]
Thanks VERY much for your take on MLK vs X. I always knew they were fighting for the same thing, and am pretty well read up on MLK, but Malcolm X always seemed…I dunno, adversarial (“The White Man” thing that you referenced). But I found your reply very thought provoking. I’ll have to think some more about this.

If you have time, read his autobiography…I think you’ll like it…if you haven’t already.
I’ll also say, that people like Malcolm X and MLK grew up in a different time than myself and I imagine it would be a-lot easier to be much angrier/prejudice against “The White Man.” But you’re welcome, they’re just two sides of a coin.

And it could definitely be centered in morality as well. It could be that slaves were divided–and–conquered regularly in order to maintain order (since there were many more of them than the owner/overseers) and thus it evolved biologically that we should only lookout for ourselves…it’s not grounded in our principles as it would be to an East Asian immigrant or a Jew. But I find that hard to believe because most of the people in my life would give the shirt off their back for you (Black, White, Asian) Whoever.

I do think the war on drugs and single motherhood could have had a negative effect, mostly because you’re more so focused on surviving.
I mean when crack came through the hood, something like 85% of men arrested for crack were black… let us not forget mandatory minimums and that 1 gram of crack got you the same amount of time as 100 grams of Cocaine, so you’re going away for a long fucking time…and when you get out?? Very likely you have few opportunities, and you probably end up back in. And let us factor in the amount that died/got locked up in the violent acts of trafficking - I don’t have a stat for that one…but it was heavily related to violent crime and risky sexual behavior.

I think that had a HUGE impact on single motherhood, and then hip hop changed from the beautiful, protestful art that it was–to the shit that is on the radio today. There are many great artists still out that create true art, but they don’t get played on the radio.
Further, suburban white kids listen more than kids in the hood do, but it shapes our reality, whereas they don’t live in that environment (generally speaking). That nonsense has hurt our communities hard, and contributes directly to the single mother problem. Most artists are Black, but most executives/label owners are Jewish (plot twist!)
The Black Artist talk the nonsense and don’t even truly reap the benefits, a lot of them are in debt trying to fake a lifestyle…like damn, at least own the label and distribution.

If I were a person that was poor, trying to survive, I’m buying shit wherever it is cheapest. Generally speaking, if you own a small business competing against wal-mart or whoever, their prices are gonna be cheaper…so that truly could have been the issue. There are many in the Black middle class like my parents, but I rarely heard my parents say anything about cooperative economics until I was in high school and even then, they weren’t riding across town to buy fruit from the Black lady selling it. So I really don’t know…but it is interesting.
My parents actually tried their best to be race-neutral, I think they wanted us to grow up as least prejudiced as possible…whereas my wife’s Dad grew up in Kannapolis,NC where he experienced horrible racial tensions and is VERY prejudice, and thus she is too…it really shows that prejudice is learned. Anyways that was a long aside to your statement…but yeah. Lol

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Stephen Covey - 7 Habits of Highly Effective People - Listen to Understand - then respond… I’m pretty sure that is one of them, though probably not phrased in that manner.

It can be hard! Especially when someone is getting visibly upset.