T Nation

Rabbi Ahron Cohen At Birmingham University


This is a great speech by Rabbi Ahron Cohen, his view of the palestinian/israel conflict.

http://www.nkusa.org/activities/speeches/bham022603.cfm

Talk By: Rabbi Ahron Cohen at Birmingham University, England
26th February ?03

My friends, it is an honour to have the opportunity of talking to you today.

I and my colleagues of Neturei Karta attend occasions such as this because we feel that we have both a religious and humanitarian duty to publicize our message as much as possible. So I hope and pray that with the Creator?s help my words and our discussions here today may be correct and true in their content and conclusions.

As you have already been told, I am an orthodox Jew (that is a Jew who endeavours to live his life completely in accordance with the Jewish religion). I am involved in ecclesiastical duties within the Jewish Community and am particularly involved in educating our youth and in helping them to achieve healthy and correct attitudes. It is therefore of particular interest to me to be able to talk to you, a student body, today.

I have been asked to talk to you about Judaism and Zionism. This subject is of course tremendously relevant in the light of the current situation in Palestine, where you have - let?s face it - one side, the Zionists (who are also Jews), wishing to impose a ?sectarian? State over the heads of an indigenous population, the Palestinians. A confrontation which has resulted in horrific bloodshed and brutality with no end in sight unless there is a very radical change.

My qualification to talk on this subject is by virtue of my being one of many orthodox Jews who absolutely sympathise with the Palestinian cause, and we protest vehemently against the terrible wrongs being perpetrated against the Palestinian People by the Zionist illegitimate regime in Palestine.

The spearhead group among us who are involved actively in this matter on a regular basis are called Neturei Karta, which can be loosely translated as Guardians of the Faith. We are not a separate party or organisation but basically a philosophy representative of a large section of orthodox Jewry.

Let me firstly state quite categorically that Judaism and Zionism are incompatible. They are diametrically opposed.

The question must surely arise in the minds of many of you here today that there appears to be a paradox. After all everyone knows that Zionists are Jews and that Zionism is for the benefit of Jews. The Palestinians are the enemies of the Zionists. How come then that I, a Jew, can sympathise with the Palestinian cause.

I would like to try to answer this question and to revert to the subject of my talk - Judaism and Zionism - on two levels, religious belief and humanitarianism. Bearing in mind that to be humanitarian is also a basic religious requirement.

Firstly from a Jewish religious belief point of view. One has to take a look at some aspects of the history of the Jewish people and at their basic belief in the Al-mighty?s control of our destiny and what the Al-mighty wants of us. All as set out in our Religious teachings, our Toira, and as taught to us through the generations by our great religious leaders. Against this we also have to look at the history of Zionism, how it developed, what are its aims.

Our religion is for us a total way of life. Showing us how to live a life in the service of the Al-mighty. It affects every aspect of our life from the cradle to the grave. We are taught that it was revealed to us by Divine Revelation, as described in the Bible, some three and a half thousand years ago, and that is when the Jewish People came in to being. All of our religious requirements, practical and philosophical, are set out in the Torah which comprises the Bible (the old testament) and a vast code of Oral Teaching handed down to us through the generations.

As mentioned, our religion is a total way of life covering every aspect of our life. One area of our religion is that subject to certain conditions is that we will be given a land, the Holy Land, now known as Palestine, in which to live and carry out various parts of our service of the Al-mighty.

Now, before I go any further, I wish to point out something which is very basic to understanding the difference between Judaism and Zionism and that is that the orthodox Jewish concept of nationhood is very different to the concept of nationhood held by most peoples. Most peoples understand a nation to be a specific people living in a specific land. The land is essential for the identity of the nation. They may or may not have a religion, but the religion is immaterial to the national identity. The orthodox Jewish concept of nationhood however, is a specific people with a specific religion. It is the religion that establishes the national identity. They may or may not have a land, the land is immaterial to the Jewish national identity.

This is borne out by the fact that the Jewish nation has been without a land for 2000 years, but as long as they retained their religion they retained their identity.

Now I mentioned earlier that we were given a land but under certain conditions. The conditions were basically that we had to maintain the highest of moral, ethical and religious standards. The Jewish People did have the land for approximately the first one thousand five hundred years of their existence. However, regretfully, the conditions were not fulfilled to the required degree and the Jews were exiled from their land. For the last two thousand years or so the Jewish people have been in a state of exile decreed by the A-lmighty because they did not maintain the standards expected of them. This state of exile is the situation that exists right up to the present day. It is a basic part of our belief to accept willingly the Heavenly decree of exile and not to try and fight against it or to end it by our own hands. To do so would constitute a rebellion against the wishes of the A-lmighty.

In practical terms, although we have maintained our Jewish identity by virtue of our attachment to our religion, never the less exile for us means firstly that Jews must be loyal subjects of the countries in which they live and not attempt to rule over the established indigenous populations of those countries.

Secondly, that we may not attempt to set up a State of our own in Palestine.
This would apply even if the land would be unoccupied and it certainly applies when, as is the case, there is an existing indigenous population. This prohibition is a basic part of our teaching and we are forsworn not to contravene it and we are warned of the dire consequences of doing so.

It follows, therefore, that Jews have no right to rule today in Palestine.

Now let us consider the Zionist movement. This was founded approximately 100 years ago mostly by secular people who were discarding their religion but still retained what they considered as the stigma of being Jews in exile. They considered that our state of exile was due to our own subservient attitude - ?the Golus (exile) mentality? - and not by Divine Decree. They wanted to throw off the constraints of exile and to try and establish a new form of Jewish identity. Not religion based but land based. It was based on a typical, emotion driven, secular nationalistic aim, similar to that of most other nations. Their policy had as its centre pin the aim of setting up a Jewish State in Palestine. But they were forging a new kind of Jew. In fact not a Jew at all- a Zionist.

This Zionist movement was a complete abandonment of our religious teachings and faith - in general - and in particular an abandonment of our approach to our state of exile and our attitude to the peoples among whom we live.

The practical outcome of Zionism in the form of the State known as ?Israel? is completely alien to Judaism and the Jewish Faith. The very name ?Israel? which originally meant what are known as the Children of Israel i.e. the Jewish People was usurped by the Zionists. For this reason many orthodox Jews avoid referring to the Zionist State by the name ?Israel?.

The ideology of Zionism is not to rely on divine providence but to take the law into ones own hands and to try to force the outcome in the form of a State. This is completely contrary to the approach to the matter of exile which our Toira requires us to adopt, as handed down to us by our great religious teachers.

I have spoken till now from the religious belief point of view. But let us consider the humanitarian point of view (and to do so is also a religious requirement as I mentioned earlier).The Zionist ideology was and is to force the aim of a State irrespective of the cost in life and property to anyone who stands in the way. The Palestinians stood in the way. We have a fact that in order to achieve an ill conceived nationalistic ambition, a shocking contravention of natural justice was committed by the Zionists in setting up an illegitimate regime in Palestine completely against the wishes of the established population, the Palestinians, which inevitably had to be based on loss of life, killing and stealing.

Most Orthodox Jews accept the Neturei Karta view to the extent that they do not agree in principle to the existence of the Zionist State and would not ?shed a tear? if it came to an end. There are however a range of opinions as to how to deal with the fact that for the time being the Zionist State exists. These opinions range from positive cooperation to pragmatic acceptance to total opposition in every way. The latter being the Neturei Karta approach.

There was and is however, an additional Zionist phenomenon which confuses the picture. That is the Religious Zionists. These are people who claim to be faithful to the Jewish Religion but they have been influenced by the Zionist secular nationalistic philosophy and have added a new dimension to Judaism - Zionism, the aim of setting up now and expanding a Jewish state in Palestine. This they try to fulfil with great fervour. (I call it Judaism-plus) They claim that this is inherent in the Jewish religion. But the fact is as explained earlier that this is absolutely contrary to the teachings of our great religious teachers.

Furthermore, from a humanitarian point of view, their ideology too was and is to force their aim irrespective of the cost in life and property to anyone who stands in the way. The Palestinians are standing in the way. This is all the more shocking as it is done in the name of religion. Whereas in reality there is a totally contrary requirement of our religion and that is to treat all peoples with compassion.

To sum up. According to the Torah and Jewish faith, the present Palestinian > Arab claim to rule in Palestine is right and just. The Zionist claim is wrong and criminal. Our attitude to Israel is that the whole concept is flawed and illegitimate.

We have another problem and that is that the Zionists have made themselves to appear as the representatives and spokespeople of all Jews thus, with their actions, arousing animosity against the Jews. Those who harbour this animosity are accused of anti-Semitism. However, what has to be made abundantly clear is that Zionism is not Judaism. Zionists cannot speak in the name of Jews. Zionists may have been born as Jews, but to be a Jew also requires adherence to the Jewish belief and religion. So what becomes abundantly clear is that opposition to Zionism and its crimes does not imply hatred of Jews or ?anti-Semitism?. On the contrary Zionism itself and its deeds are the biggest threat to Jews and Judaism.

The strife between Arab and Jew in Palestine only began when the first Zionist pioneers came to Palestine with the express aim of forming a State over the heads of the indigenous Arab population. That strife has continued until this very day and has cost and continues to cost thousands and thousands of lives. The oppression, abuse and murder in Palestine is a tragedy not only for the Palestinians but for the Jewish people as well. And is in fact part of the dire consequences of which we are warned if we transgress our religious requirement not to rebel against our exile.

I wish to add that the connection between Muslims and Jews goes right back into ancient history. Mostly the relationship was friendly and mutually beneficial. Historically, the situation frequently was that when Jews were being persecuted in Europe they found refuge in the various Muslim countries. Our attitude to Muslims and Arabs can only be one of friendliness and respect.

I would like to finish with the following words. We want to tell the world, especially our Muslim neighbours, that there is no hatred or animosity between Jew and Muslim. We wish to live together as friends and neighbours as we have done mostly over hundreds even thousands of years in all the Arab countries. It was only the advent of the Zionists and Zionism which upset this age old relationship.

We consider the Palestinians as the people with the right to govern in Palestine.

The Zionist State known as ?Israel? is a regime that has no right to exist. Its continuing existence is the underlying cause of the strife in Palestine. 33. We pray for a solution to the terrible and tragic impasse that exists. Hopefully based on results brought about by moral, political and economic pressures imposed by the nations of the world.

We pray for an end to bloodshed and an end to the suffering of all innocent people - Jew and non-Jew alike - worldwide.

We are waiting for the annulment of Zionism and the dismantling of the Zionist regime, which will bring about an end to the suffering of the Palestinian people. We would welcome the opportunity to dwell in peace in the holy land under a rule which is entirely in accordance with the wishes and aspirations of the Palestinian People.

May we soon merit the time when all mankind will be at peace with each other.

Interesting, not one comment…

Proof positive:
Religion rots your brain.

[quote]jlesk68 wrote:
Interesting, not one comment…[/quote]

Nothing in there to disagree with or argue about. He’s right.

The only comment there is to say is that this guy states at least 5 times he is a Palestinian SYMPATHIZER. He may be a Jew but he obviously hates his country. Every place you go there are sympathizers for the other side of the coin. How many non-terrorists came out after 9/11 and basically supported the attacks on the United States, just not in those exact words? I work in a jail where some of the people I work with sympathize with the inmates to the point that they make my job more dangerous. Exactly what point were you trying to prove with this? How, although surrounded by countries that want to see them disappear even one of their own wants to see them disappear?

[quote]snipeout wrote:
The only comment there is to say is that this guy states at least 5 times he is a Palestinian SYMPATHIZER. He may be a Jew but he obviously hates his country. Every place you go there are sympathizers for the other side of the coin. How many non-terrorists came out after 9/11 and basically supported the attacks on the United States, just not in those exact words? I work in a jail where some of the people I work with sympathize with the inmates to the point that they make my job more dangerous. Exactly what point were you trying to prove with this? How, although surrounded by countries that want to see them disappear even one of their own wants to see them disappear?[/quote]

Not trying to prove any point, just interested in people’s opinions on this subject, after all, that’s what this forum is for.

In my opinion then you have someone suffering from a sort of “stockholm syndrome”. He has lived around the “oppressed” Palestinians so long he has taken to their cause.

[quote]snipeout wrote:
How, although surrounded by countries that want to see them disappear even one of their own wants to see them disappear?[/quote]

Agree or disagree, this guy is not alone… there are quite a few people who feel this way based on purely religious grounds.

Our country is full of lunatics too.

The extent of direct as well as subtle anti-semitism never ceases to amaze me.

So Rabbi Cohen advocates a secular and democratic state in place of the race-based state of Israel on religious and humanitarian grounds and he is thus an anti-Semite?!

Maybe we need to review what ‘semite’ means. Here’s dictionary.com’s definition:

A member of a group of Semitic-speaking peoples of the Near East and northern Africa, including the Arabs, Arameans, Babylonians, Carthaginians, Ethiopians, Hebrews, and Phoenicians.
A Jew.
Bible. A descendant of Shem

The racist apologists for Zionism love to play the ‘anti-semite’ card when refering to Arab hostility to the apartheid state of Israel…but it just doesn’t make any sense! This, however, is a new and fantastic expansion of ‘anti-semite;’ apparently, Orthodox Jewish rabbis can now qualify as ‘anti-semites’ by disagreeing with political Zionists!

Again, on a slightly unrelated note - where do the rating stars come from?

This thread has 5 stars.

Not that seeing fringe anti-Semitism isn’t interesting, but the Miers situation, by comparison, is far more relevant and cogent.

Why the high rating?

I don’t even know how to rate a thread :-S

[quote]battlelust wrote:
So Rabbi Cohen advocates a secular and democratic state in place of the race-based state of Israel on religious and humanitarian grounds and he is thus an anti-Semite?!

Maybe we need to review what ‘semite’ means. Here’s dictionary.com’s definition:

A member of a group of Semitic-speaking peoples of the Near East and northern Africa, including the Arabs, Arameans, Babylonians, Carthaginians, Ethiopians, Hebrews, and Phoenicians.
A Jew.
Bible. A descendant of Shem

The racist apologists for Zionism love to play the ‘anti-semite’ card when refering to Arab hostility to the apartheid state of Israel…but it just doesn’t make any sense! This, however, is a new and fantastic expansion of ‘anti-semite;’ apparently, Orthodox Jewish rabbis can now qualify as ‘anti-semites’ by disagreeing with political Zionists![/quote]

I am going with the definition of “a Jew”. Yes Arabs and others are semetic, but that is not germane to my point.

This so called Rabbi is a nut job. He is on the far fringe.

I consider anyone that does not think Israel has a right to exist an anti-semite.

There are a lot of anti-semites that don’t think Israel should exist. Europe is full of them.

They did not stand up to stop the “final solution”. In fact many willingly joined in. Many others claimed to not know what was going on under their very noses.

After the war many Jews returned to their homeland and carved out a state.

They displaced some Palestineans. Rather than take in displaced Palistineans the billion or so Muslims have used them as tool against the Jews, thus making the Palestineans miserable.

The writer of this article and the person that posted it here certainly did with anti-semitic intentions.

If you cannot see those intentions, perhaps you are seeing through a filter.

I am no apologist for Isreal. They have played dirty with the Palestineans (as have the Arabs) and they have played dirty with the US.

I do recognize anti-semitism.

[quote]I am going with the definition of “a Jew”. Yes Arabs and others are semetic, but that is not germane to my point.

This so called Rabbi is a nut job. He is on the far fringe.

I consider anyone that does not think Israel has a right to exist an anti-semite.[/quote]

I don’t believe that Rabbi Cohen claims that Israel doesn’t have a ‘right’ to exist. He think he’s questioning whether or not Israel should be an apartheid state with different rights for Jews and Palestenians. The solution that he implies is the same solution that Israeli leftists have postulated for years: a one state solution. Why must Israel have a ‘jewish character?’ With that said, choosing to define ‘anti-semite’ as someone who disagrees with you on the political situation in Israel weakens the term ‘anti-semite’ which should be taken very, very seriously.[quote]

There are a lot of anti-semites that don’t think Israel should exist. Europe is full of them.

They did not stand up to stop the “final solution”. In fact many willingly joined in. Many others claimed to not know what was going on under their very noses.[/quote]

I agree with this statement. And America and England were guilty also. As early as the late 30s, information as to the true nature of Hitler’s plan was being leaked out. In 1942, spies informed the War Department of the trains that were transporting Jews, Gypsies, Homosexuals, Leftists, Christians, etc. to the camps. It was deemed “not credible.” The trains continued to run. My grandmother was Hungarian slave labor and struggled with substance abuse and mental instability for the rest of her life. Does that mean that Hungarians, Gypsies, Homosexuals, Poles, etc. should be allowed to create countries were people who don’t fit their religious beliefs or ethnicities don’t receive the same rights and protections? No!

Many of the Jews who immigrated to the British Mandate were, in fact, as much Europeans as they were Semitic. There was no “return.” It was immigration, not homecoming.[quote]

They displaced some Palestineans. Rather than take in displaced Palistineans the billion or so Muslims have used them as tool against the Jews, thus making the Palestineans miserable.[/quote]

I agree that the Arab countries surrounding Israel have used the Palestineans as a weapon against Israel. Additionally, they refused asylum to those Palestenians who sought it. However, this doesn’t invalidate the Palestinean claim to their land. Palestineans are culturally separate from Syrians, Lebanese, Jordanians, etc. Before 1948, the Palestenians were the most culturally advanced Arab people. Now they live like American Indians.

I have no comment on the author of the article. I think you’re using a selective definition of ‘anti-semitism’ again, but that’s irrelevant. I cannot speak for the author. As for the poster, I share your suspicions.

If I was anti-semitic I would admit it gentlemen, but I’m not, I agree with Israel’s God given right to exist. I wanted to post something a bit controversial to stir up opinion. I also believe the palestinians have a right to exist.

Zap,

You are dead wrong about “anti-semitism,” here. Orthodox Jews believe that only God can re-establish the state of Israel (among other things). To them, creating the state of Israel is tantamount to playing God. This doesn’t make them “anti-semites,” nor “self-hating Jews” as the political Zionists like to call them.

From the article:

The Zionist State known as ?Israel? is a regime that has no right to exist.

In my opinion Israel has as much right to exist as any other country on the face of the planet.

They would be fools to trust their neighbors the Palestinians. Until the Palestinians can go a year without murdering innocent school children why the hell should Israel give up any political power?

Why should they ever give it up? Why do the Muslims believe it is their land? It was Jewish land for over a thousand years before Mohammed was born.

Muslims have a billion people and control land from Africa to Indonesia.

The Jews have a sliver of land in the middle east and the Muslims get bent out of shape?

What is so bloody wrong with Zionism?

The Jews were murdered by the millions. They return to their ancestral homeland and band together to make sure it won’t happen again and they are the bad guys?

The suffering of the Palestinians pales in comparison to the suffering of the Jews. I blame most of the suffering of the Palestinians on the rest of the Arab world that has forced this horrible war.

I stand by my beliefs that this Rabbi is a nutjob and is misguided. He is being used by those that are interested only in the destruction of Israel. Sounds anti-semetic to me. If you want to call it anti-zionist, that is fine but the two are tied too closely together to seperate.

[quote]jlesk68 wrote:

The writer of this article and the person that posted it here certainly did with anti-semitic intentions.

If I was anti-semitic I would admit it gentlemen, but I’m not, I agree with Israel’s God given right to exist. I wanted to post something a bit controversial to stir up opinion. I also believe the palestinians have a right to exist.[/quote]

You post a picture to stir up anger against Jews and you don’t see yourself as anti-semetic?

Why don’t you post pictures of the aftermath of a Palestinian suicide bomber killing schoolchildren?

Anti-semetism seems to be awfully popular with the conspiracy theory crowd. Jews control the world and all that other horseshit.

Sometimes I think you are just kidding around when you post this stuff, but the more I see it the more I realize it is all in the same vein.

Perhaps I wouldn’t question your motives if I saw a different side to your postings.

[quote]nephorm wrote:
Zap,

You are dead wrong about “anti-semitism,” here. Orthodox Jews believe that only God can re-establish the state of Israel (among other things). To them, creating the state of Israel is tantamount to playing God. This doesn’t make them “anti-semites,” nor “self-hating Jews” as the political Zionists like to call them.

[/quote]

I fully understand what you are saying, however these types of statements are often used to fuel anger and hatred against Israel by those that want the destruction of Israel and don’t mind if they have to kill every Jew in the middle east to do it.

[quote]snipeout wrote:
The only comment there is to say is that this guy states at least 5 times he is a Palestinian SYMPATHIZER. He may be a Jew but he obviously hates his country. Every place you go there are sympathizers for the other side of the coin. How many non-terrorists came out after 9/11 and basically supported the attacks on the United States, just not in those exact words? I work in a jail where some of the people I work with sympathize with the inmates to the point that they make my job more dangerous. Exactly what point were you trying to prove with this? How, although surrounded by countries that want to see them disappear even one of their own wants to see them disappear?[/quote]

No he loves his country, he doesn’t love Iarael, because as he stated his country is held together by religion not land. In fact nationhood is a fairly arbitary thing. What defines a nation is difficult to discern, for instance the political and geographical hegemony of Yugoslavia didn’t work, neither did it for Czechoslovakia, equally in what looks like a distinct geographic country- the British Isles, we have Rep. Ireland, Ireland, England, Scotland and Wales, not to mention the Isle of Man. People feel varying degrees of affiliation as to whether they are English for instance, or British or sometimes their regional identity supercedes either, for instance being a Geordie from Newcastle. Having a nation with no specific land, united by religion is not inconcievable when you realise even established nations often can not pin down national identity.