[quote]Norwell Bob wrote:
Why don’t you teach her how to cast some spells and give her some mithril armor?
Or nunchucks.
[/quote]
Maybe his mother can reroll as a bard and use mithral breastplate for the added AC.
[quote]matt_oz wrote:
Noble idea mate, good stuff!
I’d suggest the following…
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The sprints are a terrific idea, the sooner they can do them the better. There’s the obvious benefit of improving the ability to flee but also the less obvious benefits such as increasing ones ability to get used to giving an activity an all out 100% effort. This in itself is extremely important when working with anyone who is not from an athletic background.
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If you have some grappling knowledge then try to run some drills where they work to escape from an open and or closed guard, cross sides, mount and 1/2 guard. Before any RBSD’ers jump down my throat yes I know that BJJ is different from plain ol self preservation but the fact is that BJJ type drills are unequalled in their ability for helping people to get acclimated to the pressure of hsaving a resisting opponent on top of you. This type of alive training is masively important as all the simulated eye gouges in the world aren’t worth a damn if you freak out the moment that someone puts their weight on you. When I teach women’s sessions I sue this approach and then obviously cover the “add ons” such gouges, rips, tears, bites etc. The “add ons” are nice but they work much better with some good general movement ability and some acclimation to having an opponent on top of you.
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Emphasise the awareness aspects (being mindfuil to avoid creating a paranoid state of mind).
Get them acclimated to a little contact nice and slowly otherwise it’s likely you’ll end up scaring off the very people who need your hepl most.
Best of luck mate,
Matt [/quote]
I agree with this whole heartedly. Awareness/sprint/stike-grapple/add ons…
High qualtiy extendable batons can be purchased for less then 20 dollars online. A flick of the wrist, and you have a 2 foot long blunt instrument.
Not sure if you guys read that this is in China. All the suggestions of weapons will probably no be possible, and weapons in the hands of the uninitiated is probably not a great idea either.
My two recommendations: proper elbows, low kicks, and headbutts, have already been mentioned.
AlphaDragon,
Props to you for teaching this stuff. Truly a noble effort. I teach women’s self-defense in North Carolina so I see the need for this training.
I have to echo what SentoGuy said about teaching not techniques, but targets and weapons. I’d shy away from “nerve” attacks and anything that requires anything more difficult than instinctive gross motor skills. I’ve found that if you limit the targets these women are attcking to about 9 or 10, and have them focus solely on those, you’ll have better luck.
As has been said already, there’s a lot to overcome as far as social conditioning for women in terms of being passive. A great way to overcome this is to simulate an attack for them to watch in order to show the true speed and “mock” viciousness of a real attack. Another thing you can do is wrestle with them at the beginning for about 15 seconds each so that they have an idea of what it feels like to tango with males. This way they know what they’re training against.
Also, look into the stats (if you can) of attacks against women to see what they will most commonly be facing. I.e. 1 male, 5 women, guns, knives… and teach towards that.
Two more pointers, if I may:
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Have the women find what may work best for them by demonstrating a few optional responses to a given scenario. Then you have them do the same scenario and drill an effective response that is “natural” for them. I.e. if the girl prefers kicking, have her work those in that scenario. And work a few scenarios each class to let the girls find their own responses using the tools you’ve given them. This increases the chances of their honing these techniques into instinct. “Muscle memory” and all that.
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I’d abstain from the conditioning stuff if this is a short time deal. You’d probably be better off showing them how to condition on one or two of the days and then have them do it on their own. Because there is such a limited time with you- have them work the stuff with you they can’t do on their own, meaning the fight stuff.
Hope this helps at least a little. If you want to chat more or get more specific, PM me and we can talk.
SHAMELESS PLUG: Anybody in the U.S./ North Carolina area who wants to set up a training time with me for self-defense or awareness training drop me a PM.
Best of luck bud.
-B
My deepest thanks to everyone who took the time to post their experiences and advice. Great stuff.
You may/may not know this, but (at least here) people tend to not raise a finger to help, but watch it happen (even if it happens mere inches in front of them). For example, student of mine was attacked on the bus by 4 men who tried to physically remove her (for God only knows what reasons)…the bus had a number of people on it, but they just sat and watched. The driver also just kept on looking.
These women are basically on their own and can rely on no one else during any kinds of violent situations…even in public.
Not only this, but other issues I face (in class, that is)include:
-A lot of these girls are shy and not accepting to a man touching them (most of them have not had even one boyfriend). So if I were to, for example, try to wrestle with one so they could know what it’s like, it’s more likely they won’t come back to the class. I’ve had to deal with this with a few of them for me grabbing their wrists. “I don’t like it when a man grabs me…” and I explain why (this is important…who would you rather do it, me or the attacker, etc), they will just keep arguing (damn culture difference is a pain in the ass in this case).
-Seeing as this is the case, how can I keep a situation “real” if they react this way? sheesh.
So, currently, I’m having to “ease” them into it, unfortunately. We have to adapt to everything in life, and this is no different.
-Getting them mentally ready to “do whatever it takes” is a real challenge…many of these women act as little girls. (for example, today one of them came up to me to ask a question, and when we were finished, she bounced away with a huge smile on her face)…very akin to a rabbit. So adorable, but so child-like).
Please feel free to continue to offer helpful suggestions…they are all appreciated and thought provoking.
AD
…and I’m tending to shy away from them carrying weapons, other than those of the small/surprising type (keys, pens, coffee cups, handbags thrown at the face, and other “improvised weaponry”). I personally agree with BushidoBadboy about this one…with the small size and stature of many (if not most) of these girls, it would be easy for a man to take the weapon away. Exponentially worse for the woman, if there are multiple attackers and they get ahold of this weapon (or even just disarm her, as the intent seems to get more adamant once a weapon is drawn).
AD
Better than a loudmouth. When you’re training someone it’s easier to have someone who doesn’t profess to be a genius tactician or some kind of hardass. Of course, as you said, you have problems retaining trainees because of it being socially unacceptable in the minds of many people to be aggressive even in a training setting. The single biggest hurdle in any kind of applied martial art is getting the typical person walking down the street to accept that to prepare for responding to brutality you have to acquaint yourself with brutality.
You can’t unless you’re an incredibly convincing and charismatic speaker and you out pull statistics about violence (whether they’re bullshit or not) and then simulate as violent an attack as you can muster on a plant in the ‘audience.’
Basically, welcome to the problem everyone else has. Pussify the training into complete and utter uselessness or lose all your trainees because you’re too much of a hardass are pretty much the two extremes, good luck walking in the middle.
In cultures where women are consciously socially conditioned for passivity (as opposed to America, in which is it generally unconscious) you’re going to experience a ton of this shit.
I have never met anyone in the martials arts who has presented a coherent solution for this problem. I would almost suggest firing off e-mails to cognitive psychologists who focus on thinking and developmental psychologists who focus on identity formation for ideas on how to handle it. I don’t think it’s something you can ever really drill out of a person unless you’re incredibly harsh, in which case you’ll lose the person so it’s somewhat of a moot point.
With all the roadblocks you have, you’re pretty much in a position where I think you should only train them to be aware of potential threats. You should ask every trainee, privately, if they are worried about being attacked in one form or another by another human being. If their response is no, you need to introduce them to human brutality without putting yourself in a situation of liability. If their response is yes, you can show them how to make the fear useful. Every female in the world that isn’t 400 pounds should have a healthy fear of being attacked by a man.
Dweezil,
I understand where you are coming from, and agree that awareness and cerebral self defense are the most important aspects.
I’d disagree with you though when you say “In a time of extreme stress and fear the conscious mind shuts down to only basic actions”. This is a statement that I see a lot, but it is not entirely true. Fine motor skills deteriorate, they don’t completely disappear. The more ingrained they are into the motor memory, the less they will deteriorate.
Also, not everyone freezes. But, as you said this is just as much (if not more) a matter of a mental change of perception as it is about physical training. If you can get a person to lose the fear of being hit, stabbed, or even killed, then they will not react the same as someone who is afraid. I also completely agree that you must instill “Killer Instinct” into them if they are to be willing to do whatever it takes to survive.
I’m not arguing with you though that lots of people do freeze and that their training does not even resemble real combat. I also agree that even the most realistic training that one can engage in is not actually real combat.
Blondeguy,
Nerve attacks don’t require fine motor skills to execute, well no more fine than eye attacks, punches, kicks, or any of the other arsenals I mentioned (with the exception of perhaps biting). They are easy to execute and effective.
AlphaDragon,
That’s really too bad about your students unwillingness to let you train them realisticly. If they don’t ever experience what it is like to have a man do something to them that might not make them feel all that comfortable in a safe setting, then they will never know how they will respond if it really happens.
I’d suggest to do as you are already doing, i.e. start out slowly and then gradually increase intensity and discomfort levels (for them). Hopefully this will allow them to aclimate to being attacked by a male, without scareing them away.
I know it’s tough though. Many women even here in the states are very unwilling to train realistically, or do what it takes to be able to truly defend themselves physically.
Good luck and good training,
Sentoguy
[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
I’d disagree with you though when you say “In a time of extreme stress and fear the conscious mind shuts down to only basic actions”. This is a statement that I see a lot, but it is not entirely true. Fine motor skills deteriorate, they don’t completely disappear. The more ingrained they are into the motor memory, the less they will deteriorate.[/quote]
My statement on the issue was a little… broad. I don’t mean to say that the conscious mind will let you do nothing but cry and shit yourself, what I mean to imply is that the conscious mind will filter out anything it sees as extraneous information and either focus on the situation at hand or break completely. A complete disassociation is very rare and is only seen in exceedingly traumatic events, but I agree, the main goal is to drill basic principles into someone that the conscious mind will not figure out. That is what I was trying to say, I guess. Keep it simple, stupid.
I’m going to argue this because I really think that only in the rarest of cases does a person not freeze. You have to have experienced something or experienced something similar to not freeze when introduced to something completely sudden. Everyone freezes. I don’t mean not responding at all, obviously a ‘response rate’ is dependent on the person, but the seconds it takes you to interpret data that shocked you is a freeze, essentially.
Really, it is about follow-through. And I do think the killer instinct is completely unteachable to someone that will not experience constant forms of combat of some kind without making them atleast somewhat sadistic and changing their view of the world completely. Someone who’s going to be seeing continual combat will be more capable of applying theories learned through repetition and purifying their tactics so it is ‘rectified’ with the conscious mind and varying techniques becomes applicable as conscious decision, not unconscious reaction. It is a threshold that few people cross, I doubt I have crossed it and I’ve been dealing in shit like this since I was 14.
Someone who is going to be taught this for a few years, then go 15 years and finally be savagely attacked will have to have an entire different view of the world than the one they came into training with to survive. They will freeze, they will not be polished. They have to able to commit gruesome acts without any form of social conditioning or squeamishness getting in the way, and from everything I’ve seen it’s incredibly difficult to train someone like that, and it’s totally hit or miss as to whether the perceived changes will actually be effective in a crisis situation.
[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
Blondeguy,
Nerve attacks don’t require fine motor skills to execute, well no more fine than eye attacks, punches, kicks, or any of the other arsenals I mentioned (with the exception of perhaps biting). They are easy to execute and effective.
[/quote]
Hey Sento,
I think it depends on what “nerve attacks” we’re talking about here. When I hear “nerve attacks,” people are usually refering to pressure points and funny bones. Unfortunately, I’ve found that pain compliance techniques such as pressure point striking and joint locking does not work for the average person in a hot situation.
Here’s why:
- Small target area- sure a pressure point might be about the same general size as an eye socket (depending on the point under discussion) but it’s easier to shove your fingers through a geltinous substance into a “cave” than it is to cause deep trauma as is necessary for a pressure point. Additionally, if the assailant is on drugs, immune to your target point, or generally a bad mofo, the nerve attack has little chance of succeeding, whereas an eye gouge will drop damn near anyone. If it doesn’t well, he’s blind AND you probably don’t want to be fighting King Kong anyway.
Also, in a fight, most people (even trained ones) are going to go for big attacks that need big, or at least forgiving, target areas- like knees or groins. This way, when the big looping swing/kick misses, it glances at least a small region of said area and causes at least some damage. Lastly, on the ground-where many people find themselves, unfortunately-a nerve attack is difficult. But if you teach soft point targets like eyes and groins, you’ve instantly enabled your student to rip, tear, shred and dismember. With a PP attack, they’ll maybe get a grunt or a tiny bit of wiggle room- if they’re lucky.
- Nerve attacks are commonly taught in conjunction with a lock of some kind. This requires that you stay with the person. Not bad if you are a cop, or well trained martial artist. A little woman on the street, jumped by any number of bad guys, is better off causing quick, severe, and lasting damage that allows her enough space to run faster than Forrest Gump on speed.
For instance a quick knee stomp, or an open hand ear slap with eye gouge and nutsack knee for good measure. Immediately followed by “AIIIEEE YAHH–HE TRIED TO RAPE ME HEEEEEEEEEEELLLLLLLLPPPPP, FIRE FIRE, POLICE”.
- A good nerve attack requires a strike that has “penetration power”. Meaning that it goes layers of tissue deep. That’s tough to do. Especially for a female with little hard training.
Now, if I’m mistaken as to what you’re referring to in regards to “nerve attacks” please let me know. If not, those are my initial thoughts and I’m more than willing to discuss this further if you like. Perhaps we can both learn something from the exhange.
-B
Sento,
BTW, I do like Pressure points and I use them a lot. I just don’t think they’re appropriate for this particular topic.
-B
[quote]bushidobadboy wrote:
I would say that you need to teach a ‘core’ of only 2-4 ‘techniques’, which you practice over and over at the start and end of each lesson. Very simple stuff only. The most important thing to instil though, HAS to be awareness.
.[/quote]
Best advice so far, and there has been a lot of good advice.
Make sure they know to strike for mens’ most vulnerable zone. You know what I’m talking about. Also the eyes, and the nose. It doesn’ t matter how big and strong someone is, a finger in the eye or a whack on the nose will make their eyes water, their grip falter, and make them think twice about continuing.
The moves to teach
- Kick/knee to the nuts
- Headbutt to nose
- Finger poke in eye/scratch eyes if they have nails
- Grab nuts and squeeze for dear life
all moves to be performed with some sort of kiai or continuous scream.
Good luck!
Dweezil,
I’m not sure I agree with you on the freezing. I’d definitely say that MOST people will freeze in a combat situation; particularly the first time. Even trained ones, you’re right. However, this can be changed using reflexive conditioning.
For instance, if you have somebody train 1 response to any given attack, then over time no matter what happens, that will be their first response- even before freezing. We use it in the military all the time. This method works quite well. Not 100% of the time, but more than 85%. There are other drills and psych conditioning methods available to combat the natural freeze, some more viable for the general populace than others, but they’re out there. And many work. However, as you’ve alluded to, a lot of it is dependent upon the student’s natural make up and experience level. But there are ways around everything.
At least I think so. But then, I am blonde 
-B
[quote]AlphaDragon wrote:
Not only this, but other issues I face (in class, that is)include:
-A lot of these girls are shy and not accepting to a man touching them (most of them have not had even one boyfriend). So if I were to, for example, try to wrestle with one so they could know what it’s like, it’s more likely they won’t come back to the class. I’ve had to deal with this with a few of them for me grabbing their wrists. “I don’t like it when a man grabs me…” and I explain why (this is important…who would you rather do it, me or the attacker, etc), they will just keep arguing (damn culture difference is a pain in the ass in this case).
-Seeing as this is the case, how can I keep a situation “real” if they react this way? sheesh.
So, currently, I’m having to “ease” them into it, unfortunately. We have to adapt to everything in life, and this is no different.
-Getting them mentally ready to “do whatever it takes” is a real challenge…many of these women act as little girls. (for example, today one of them came up to me to ask a question, and when we were finished, she bounced away with a huge smile on her face)…very akin to a rabbit. So adorable, but so child-like).
Please feel free to continue to offer helpful suggestions…they are all appreciated and thought provoking.
AD[/quote]
You have to acclimate them into grappling with you by having them grapple with each other first. Then work on the ones with more extroverted/confident personalities.
Do you have any manneqins? They need to be able to practice some of the techniques with full force. Or contact/sparring suits?
I’m noticing a trend regarding the quick advocation of headbutting. Now, I do think headbutts are useful, but more often than not, they do more bad than good. If you’ve not truly rammed your head into that of another person at full force, allow me to say that it fucking hurts! Especially if done incorrectly.
Now, with a helmet on by all means go for it. But I’m envisioning a poor 130lb girl trying to headbutt anything tougher than a pillow, and it’s hurting ME.
Headbutts are disorienting and painful to the giver and to the receiver. The aftereffects of even a good headbutt can leave the defender pretty much screwed especially against multiple assailants. And god forbid she screwed up or hit somebody with a hard head. I’d think twice before advocating these as a primary, or even secondary, tool.
-B
[quote]deanosumo wrote:
AlphaDragon wrote:
Not only this, but other issues I face (in class, that is)include:
-A lot of these girls are shy and not accepting to a man touching them (most of them have not had even one boyfriend). So if I were to, for example, try to wrestle with one so they could know what it’s like, it’s more likely they won’t come back to the class. I’ve had to deal with this with a few of them for me
grabbing their wrists. “I don’t like it when a man grabs me…” and I explain why (this is important…who would you rather do it, me or the attacker, etc), they will just keep arguing (damn culture difference is a pain in the ass in this case).
-Seeing as this is the case, how can I keep a situation “real” if they react this way? sheesh.
So, currently, I’m having to “ease” them into it, unfortunately. We have to adapt to everything in life, and this is no different.
-Getting them mentally ready to “do whatever it takes” is a real challenge…many of these women act as little girls. (for example, today one of them came up to me to ask a question, and when we were finished, she bounced away with a huge smile on her face)…very akin to a rabbit. So adorable, but so child-like).
Please feel free to continue to offer helpful suggestions…they are all appreciated and thought provoking.
AD
You have to acclimate them into grappling with you by having them grapple with each other first. Then work on the ones with more extroverted/confident personalities.
Do you have any manneqins? They need to be able to practice some of the techniques with full force. Or contact/sparring suits?
[/quote]
Fully agreed. I’ve already started slightly in this regard. Eventually I’m going to work up to 4 people holding a limb (2 arms and legs) and the victim having to try to “freak out” (i.e: what someone before called “the clothes doused with gasoline and on fire ‘Freak out’” Please forgive me for not being able to recall who posted that great description.) their way out. Even eventually working up to this while pinning the victim on the ground (again, each limb being held).
Of course, not getting into these kinds of situations will be first and foremost ingrained in their heads…but training for it most definately does not hurt.
Currently training gear is limited. I have 2 heavy bags, and some boxing gloves (like 2-3 pairs). That’s all. Remember, I’m funding this whole thing and I can’t afford to do much more at current.
And I refuse to charge because they are college students primarily, and have even less money than most of us (in the US) did when we were in college. Even with jobs, they have barely enough money to eat the basic 3 meals (even then it’s bread and rice, primarily).
I have been able to find an old head of a manequin. I’m going to hollow out the eyes and do something “creative” with it. Maybe put it on top of a heavy bag or something and hang the bag low…
Again, I’d like to thank everyone for their input and comments and support. This has been better than I wished for.
And, not to sound greedy, any other ideas (concepts, experience, ideas, “creative equipment ideas”, scenarios, etc) would be greatly appreciated.
Most Sincerely,
Jason
(a.k.a. AlphaDragon)
[quote]blondeguy wrote:
Dweezil,
I’m not sure I agree with you on the freezing. I’d definitely say that MOST people will freeze in a combat situation; particularly the first time. Even trained ones, you’re right. However, this can be changed using reflexive conditioning.
For instance, if you have somebody train 1 response to any given attack, then over time no matter what happens, that will be their first response- even before freezing. We use it in the military all the time. This method works quite well. Not 100% of the time, but more than 85%. There are other drills and psych conditioning methods available to combat the natural freeze, some more viable for the general populace than others, but they’re out there. And many work. However, as you’ve alluded to, a lot of it is dependent upon the student’s natural make up and experience level. But there are ways around everything.
At least I think so. But then, I am blonde
-B
[/quote]
Blondeguy,
Would it be possible to give some appropriate examples of this kind of psych conditioning methods? Are there any appropriate in this kind of class situation?
If you are uncomfortable sharing on a public forum, would you please consider PM’ing them to me?
On a side note, I just got off the phone (not too long ago) with a friend who is a 25 year experienced clinical psychologist with experience (within the last few years) with these kinds of women (primarily from treating a few of them here in this city in China). He said that most of them that he knows/treated/heard of are primarily stuck in “freeze mode” during attacks.
An example, (toned down for the public) is a girl who was sexually assaulted by a man she thought she knew (she “knew” him from the internet and he “loved” her and tried to have sex with her (make her lose her virginity) so she would have no choice but to marry him…). Basically, he pinned her down and tried to do it. Now, she pleaded and struggled, and avoided the…uhhh…“thrust” of it. But she was still assaulted and “entered” a little. Apparently, if she did some simple things like bite, for example, she could have escaped.
He (my friend, the Psych Doctor) says that even to train them in any basic way would ingrain more of a pro-active mindset that would get these girls out of these situations instead of freezing in confusion and disbelief.
Any thoughts on this?
Oh, and I’m going to ingrain the “Don’t plead or beg unless you plan to use it to launch a surprise attack” method. In my experience, attackers get more violent and empowered if they know they are in control…but if you get them thinking that way and then use the situation to your benefit (quickly changing and launching a devestating surprise attack), the effects can be very satisfactory.
Again, you all have my deepest thanks and respect.
AD