T Nation

Questions on My First Test Only Cycle, HCG, and PCT


#1

Just looking for your thoughts/opinions.

First cycle is going to be:
Week 1: Mon - 750mg testosterone cypionate, Fri - 250mg. test. cyp.
Weeks 2-12: 250mg test. cyp. M & F (so 500mg/wk)

Incase of gyno: Nolvadex (tamoxifen) 20mg/day & take for 3 days after symptoms go away.

PCT: Nolvadex (tamoxifen) 60mg day 1(10 days after last test. cyp. injection), then 40mg for 10 days, then 20 mg for 10 days.

QUESTION: I read somewhere that it MIGHT NOT be good to use HCG for an extended period of time and that it's recommended to only use it for 2-3 week intervals. Regardless of this being true or not, what do you all think about using 250iu's of HCG M & F (so 500iu/wk) DURING my cycle weeks 3, 4, & 5. Then the same thing weeks 9, 10, & 11. and then NOT use HCG in my PCT. Is this retarded or not?

I've been being smart and doing my research and thinking things through before I jump into anything for about 3 months now and I'm ready to start within the next month or so. Does it seem like I've got my head on straight?

Also, what if I'm not able to get my hands on some HCG? Then what do you recommend? Holding off until I'm able to get some or what?

Thanks in advance.


#2

Can you give some stats?

Your way of using hCG is ok. Plenty of people use it throughout the cycle and are completely fine. HCG is not 100% necessary. Many people cycle without it. Using it absolutely will not hurt though.

Do not use nolvadex for gyno prevention. Read about the differences between AI’s and SERM’s and why Armidex or Letrozole are more appropriate choices for on cycle estrogen control. The SERM/AI sticky is a fine place to start.


#3

Agree with Bonez, an AI is a far more powerful tool to control estrogen related side-effects. IME, SERMs are mainly used to regulate a flare up if for some rare reason they occur. I also implemented 60mg ASAP instead of a lowly 20mg and kept it that way until the situation was under control. This mainly occured when I undertook a test heavy cycle with no AI. It was bound to happen and I learned my lesson. I too researched the use of HCG but in practice I found no need for it.


#4

alright, I guess I will only use the HCG if my balls begin to shrink, that was my main concern/reason for considering using it in the first place. OR I suppose I can maybe use HCG every few cycles to keep things working. I will try to find some Adex (or maybe try to get lucky and get my endochrinologist to get me a prescription for it) for gyno remedy.

As far as stats. I am 6’4’’, 220 lbs, not sure what my body fat is but it is fairly low (i.e. low enough where my abs are visible), 23 years old, I am currently on 200mg/wk of Test. Cyp. for TRT because my Total Test levels were at 249ng/dl. I know that sticky says don’t touch steroids if you are under 25, but I figure a) im close to that, and b) my test levels are low as it is.

Like I previously touched upon, I have a LITTLE fat to lose but not much so my concern at the moment is bulking up. I don’t count calories/macronutrients anymore, but I eat clean (wheat/whole grain carbs, no white bread/rice, everything sugar free/low sugar, etc), load up on carbs early and taper off to no carbs my last meal or two, get 50-70g protein with every meal, and fat is prob around 100-120g/day with very few saturated fats… AKA my diet is good. Training each body part 1x/week. This will be my first cycle.


#5

If your natural test levels are already low, I’d be leaning strongly towards using hCG on cycle. Modest amounts aren’t going to cause desensitization, if that’s your fear, and it should help keep you on track for an easy recovery.


#6

Regarding his PCT, since he’s using cyp, shouldn’t he start around 14 days after his last injection rather than 10 or is that just nitpicking?

Also, shouldn’t he be using 40/40/20/20 nolva protocol, or is that 60/40/20 21 day PCT a protocol I’ve never heard of?


#7

I got the 60/40/20 Nolva protocol from the old forum I was a member of. I’ll look into the 40/40/20/20 though and see which one makes more sense to me. Is that protocol popular around here?

What should I do for my TRT though? Should I do my cycle as I listed above (as in stop all test. injections, wait 10-14 days then start PCT) then after PCT is complete, go back on my 100mg/wk TRT schedule?


#8

If you are on TRT you don’t need to run a SERM based PCT. You have no need to restart your HPTA because it is already not working by itself. After your cycle is done you can taper down to your TRT dose and just continue from there.

Someone on TRT should be using hCG and an AI all year round.


#9

yeah I was reading a thread on here a while ago that said ideal TRT is the testosterone, HCG, and adex… however most doctors either dont feel comfortable prescribing that/they dont know what they are doing. Long story short I was on TRT, then developed hyperthyroidism for like 3 months, then before I even started any treatment for that (I had an ultrasound, radioactive iodine uptake scan, biopsy all done, but never started thyroid meds) my thyroid levels normalized themselves. But during that time my doc said to go off the testosterone until thyroid problem was solved.

So I had a blood test done last week and results came back today: Total Test 259. Estradiol 28. Thyroid levels still normal. Not sure what everything else is yet. So Monday I am meeting with endocrinologist again. It was my primary doc that originally started me on TRT and my endocrinologist hasn’t prescribed me anything yet, so who knows, maybe he knows what hes doing and will give me HCG/Adex/test.

So, ideally, I would be on TRT with test. cyp., HCG, Adex. Then when I do a Test only cycle, 500mg test cyp/wk. Then keep using HCG/Adex throughout the entire cycle, then taper off my testosterone gradually back down to 100mg/wk? I’m not too familiar with test taper off PCT so I’ll have to look into that more. What would be your recommended dosages of HCG and Adex? And also if you could give me an example of what you think my taper down should look like, I’d appreciate it.

What would my waiting/stasis period look like if I even need one at all? wait 4-6 weeks after last 250mg injection (injecting 2x per week). Then 200mg wk. 1, 180mg wk. 2, 160mg wk. 3, 140mg wk. 4, 120mg wk. 5, 100mg wk. 6 through the start of my next cycle?


#10

I was on pharmacychecker.com to compare prescription drug prices. I don’t know how legit that site is (seems legit, though) and I was looking at the prices for HCG. I found a generic brand of HCG, 10,000 iu for about $50-60. Is this roughly the price range I’d be looking at? (not including whatever is covered by insurance, because I just graduated college with a degree in Finance and am expecting to not be employed for another couple weeks/months, thus, my health insurance under my parents expired yesterday).

So, under the TRT sticky, 250 iu EOD, this would be $50-60 for 80 days worth of HCG. Sound about right?


#11

[quote]cosmok wrote:
I was on pharmacychecker.com to compare prescription drug prices. I don’t know how legit that site is (seems legit, though) and I was looking at the prices for HCG. I found a generic brand of HCG, 10,000 iu for about $50-60. Is this roughly the price range I’d be looking at? (not including whatever is covered by insurance, because I just graduated college with a degree in Finance and am expecting to not be employed for another couple weeks/months, thus, my health insurance under my parents expired yesterday).

So, under the TRT sticky, 250 iu EOD, this would be $50-60 for 80 days worth of HCG. Sound about right?[/quote]

Hucog is available for far cheaper ($22 atm for a 10K IU vial) from a popular overseas pharmacy that uses the acronym ADC… Shipping / handling costs are a little high if you’re only purchasing a single vial, so buy in bulk to make it worthwhile.


#12

isn’t it illegal to ship in meds from overseas even with a valid prescription?


#13

It’s illegal to use the prescribed drugs the way you plan to lol.

But if customs stops the package and you get a letter from them saying they stopped your package dont respond to it. Theyll offer you the opportunity to go claim it, don’t do that. If you get caught with the vials of hCG and produce a prescription for it I think it is very unlikely that anything will come of it. HCG is not a scheduled narcotic. There’s really no reason for LE to waste their money going after you. All my opinion.

(No idea how credible that website is)


#14

haha yeah it is illegal to use them how I’m going to use them, but theres no way they can prove how I’m using them (if I’m not an idiot about it). That’s why it would be soo nice to get a prescription for everything (all 3) that I’m going to be using. Like BONEZ said, if I showed a valid prescription I don’t think they would bother prosecuting me. Didn’t the DEA and a bunch of other organizations vote against the ACA (anabolic control act I believe it’s called)?


#15

[quote]cosmok wrote:
Didn’t the DEA and a bunch of other organizations vote against the ACA (anabolic control act I believe it’s called)?
[/quote]

Yes, but that doesn’t mean they’re currently legal. It’s their job to enforce drug laws. Current drug laws state that AAS without a script are illegal.


#16

[quote]rrjc5488 wrote:

[quote]cosmok wrote:
Didn’t the DEA and a bunch of other organizations vote against the ACA (anabolic control act I believe it’s called)?
[/quote]

Yes, but that doesn’t mean they’re currently legal. It’s their job to enforce drug laws. Current drug laws state that AAS without a script are illegal.[/quote]

oh yeah I know, just more of a general statement/question. Anyways, anyone have any idea of what my test taper PCT schedule should look like while being on TRT. I’ve read the sticky about taper, but don’t know how that would differ on account of I’m on TRT.


#17

[quote]cosmok wrote:

[quote]rrjc5488 wrote:

[quote]cosmok wrote:
Didn’t the DEA and a bunch of other organizations vote against the ACA (anabolic control act I believe it’s called)?
[/quote]

Yes, but that doesn’t mean they’re currently legal. It’s their job to enforce drug laws. Current drug laws state that AAS without a script are illegal.[/quote]

oh yeah I know, just more of a general statement/question. Anyways, anyone have any idea of what my test taper PCT schedule should look like while being on TRT. I’ve read the sticky about taper, but don’t know how that would differ on account of I’m on TRT.[/quote]

Since you aren’t attempting to restart your HPTA the way someone not on HRT would be, you don’t have to follow such a strict stasis/taper. If you are running 500mg/wk you may be able to just drop it by 100mg/wk until you get to your TRT dose. I’m guessing the longer you taper the dose the smoother the transition will be but there are guys who just go from their cycle dose to their TRT dose without any taper.

Do you have to worry about getting your levels tested at any point? For insurance reasons or doc’s request or whatever.


#18

Well currently I am uninsured (just graduated college and don’t have a job yet thanks to this lovely economic situation were in) but my endocrinologist said they would give me a no charge visit on Monday cuz they f’d up and forgot to check my estradiol levels. So, as it looks like right now, I’m meeting with my endo on Monday and hes going to prescribe me whatever I need, and he’ll prob tell me to get blood work done every few months or so, or if my low T symptoms don’t go away to come back in. But if I’m on my cycle I just won’t go in.

As far as insurance, that’s a good point you bring up. If (I mean, WHEN) I get a job and, assuming they provide health insurance, I don’t know if they would require blood work to be done. I never thought about that so good point there BONEZ. I know some require a physical but not sure if they require a complete blood test or anything like that. I’ll have to check into that, and if that’s the case then I’ll definitely hold off my cycle until AFTER I land a job.

But, to answer your question, RIGHT NOW no I don’t have any testing obligations like that.

As far as the stasis/taper, thank you for that. I’ll be injecting every Mon & Fri both when off cycle and on my cycle. So I’ll do:
Weeks 1-12: 250mg Mon. & Fri.
Week 13: 200mg M & F
Week 14: 150mg M & F
Week 15: 100mg M & F
Week 16 through the start of my next cycle: 50mg M & F

IF (and that’s a big IF) I can get a prescription for both HCG & Arimidex, when NOT on my cycle I see it’s recommended to do 250iu HCG EOD (if I opted NOT to use HCG like I stated before where I would use it in 3 week or so intervals), and 1.0mg/wk Arimidex. How/should I adjust these dosages when on my cycle? From what I’ve been reading, I would assume I’d be fine leaving the HCG at 250iu EOD. But not sure how to adjust the Arimidex. And then JUST IN CASE, I would keep some Nolvadex on hand to stop a gyno flare up.


#19

I think that’s too much hCG. ~100mg EOD is more commonly recommended. 250iu E3D. Leave that the same on and off cycle.

Adex dose is directly related to T dose. If 1mg/wk works for you on 200mg per week and you go to 500mg/wk of T adjust accordingly.


#20

Am I missing some thing, or was it ever ascertained why this person (OP)/ you are hypogonadal/low testosterone?? I would think for everyone involved, OP, your Doctor and US (people giving info) this information would be very important…

Why are you hypogonadal or why do you have low test?