T Nation

Questions of Test and Est

Supplements and Nutrition
#1

I was wondering if it makes sense to anyone that if you generally have ability to put on muscle, but tend to carry extra fat, you should use an estrogen supressor, but if you generally are lean but with a hard time putting on muscle, you would do better with a testosterone stimulator.

Also:

  1. How much can diet affect T and estrogen levels (within normal, non-vegitarian parameters) ?

  2. How much does overtraining affect T and Estrogen levels. Does it affect Estrogen levels at all?

  3. Does anyone know exactly how Testosterone acts to build muscle? I know that studies show that muscle can be built in the complete absence of Testosterone. Does Testosterone directly stimulate muscle growth?

  4. Does a 30 year old adult male need any estrogen whatsoever?

Thanks.

#2

Wow, these questions are game-show difficult.

To address your first question: 6oxo, by ErgoPharm, purportedly suppresses Estrogen and boosts Testosterone simultaneously.

#3

3 is the only thing I can even provide an educated guess on.

Testosterone builds muscle primarily through stimulation of AR receptors. This increases protein sythisis in the muslces resulting in growth. Or at least that’s the junior high version. There’s a much more complicated verison that includes muscle cell nucleii that was too much for me at the time I read it. I guess muslce can be build w/o test because some level of protein sythisis occurs naturally and test only increases that natural level.

#4

[quote]mertdawg wrote:
I was wondering if it makes sense to anyone that if you generally have ability to put on muscle, but tend to carry extra fat, you should use an estrogen supressor, but if you generally are lean but with a hard time putting on muscle, you would do better with a testosterone stimulator.

Also:

  1. How much can diet affect T and estrogen levels (within normal, non-vegitarian parameters) ?

  2. How much does overtraining affect T and Estrogen levels. Does it affect Estrogen levels at all?

  3. Does anyone know exactly how Testosterone acts to build muscle? I know that studies show that muscle can be built in the complete absence of Testosterone. Does Testosterone directly stimulate muscle growth?

  4. Does a 30 year old adult male need any estrogen whatsoever?

Thanks.[/quote]

  1. There was a recent study that I wish I could find(might dig it up later, especially if noone else has heard of it) that shows that mono-unsaturated, as well as saturated fat levels correlate directly with testosterone levels. Meanwhile, polyunsaturated fats had no correlation. There was also, as I remember, an inverse correlation drawn between testosterone and carb to protein ratios in one’s diet. The study was limited, but nevertheless, suggestive, and if nothing else, supports previous research which has shown that saturated and monounsaturated fats are important for testosterone levels.

  2. All I can tell you on this subject is that overtraining will suppress testosterone levels. I am not sure what, if any effect this would have in regards to estrogen, but I would be concerned about the testosterone to estrogen ratio, even if estrogen levels themselves do not change.

  3. This was addressed very nicely already by Zell959.

  4. My understanding is that there is a need, in order for balance, that there be some estrogen, though I do not think there is neccesarily a neccesity for it to be bound to the hormonal receptors. I’m sure someone else can elaborate or correct this bit here.

#5

Any comments on the initial question of the variable effectiveness of T stimulators versus E supressors.

Also, does the same enzyme that turns T into E also turn E into T. I could probably look it up.

#6

I think your theory that certain people would do better with T-elevators, and others better with E-suppressors is too much of a generalization.

People that put on muscle and fat easily, or stay lean easily, do so for a variety of reasons, only sometimes related to their hormonal levels.

Which supplement would be best for a given person depends on their hormonal profile and cannot be so easily generalized.

#7

[quote]mertdawg wrote:
Any comments on the initial question of the variable effectiveness of T stimulators versus E supressors.

Also, does the same enzyme that turns T into E also turn E into T. I could probably look it up.[/quote]

I’m not aware of any process that will turn E into T, but I will conceed that the only way that might happen is if your E levels got to high and I’ve never been interesting in getting my E levels that high.

If there was such a process it would have to be a different enzyme I’d imaging because the enzyme for amromatization wouldn’t have and affinity for E.