T Nation

Questions Before the Leap


Weight:220lbs 12% b/f
Years of trainining:3
Starting bodyweight:165lbs 12% b/f

Planned Cycle:
wk 1-12 1g test E
wk 1-4 dbol 40mg
Nolva 40/40/20/20 pct

Meal 1:Isolate shake 50g protein, oatmeal, spoon of PB vitamins etc
Meal 2:1/2lb Chicken/Pork/Beef, carbs
Meal 3:same as above
Meal 4:Shitty ass cookies or Pb sammich
Pump iron
Meal 5:post workout shake and oatmeal
Meal 6:1lb pork or chicken or lean beef, pound or 2 potato
Meal 7:Fruit

Workout program
4 day split never longer then hour and half, incorporating drop sets, deadlifts, overhead squats, snatches, cleans, incline bench, isolation bullshit.

Im picking up 20cc ampules of test, do i just draw out of there, bandaid the hole on top and fridge?

What sort of diet changes will i need to make? I am a classic skinny ass bitch, long femurs, narrow shoulders type. I rareley defer from my setup, and get over 9hrs of sleep a day. Do not smoke, do not drink.

Should I worry about using things such as adderall with d-bol? Like toasting my liver?

Thanks again in advance


If your using vials with rubber stoppers dont worry about there being a hole.

Your diet sounds good and you could throw in some milk thistle and crannberry extract but the d-bol should be fine.Maybe get some liv.52 tabs.


First of all I will say that I don't support a 20year old using. But you have acceptable stats so I'll give some advice.

A 20ml bottle is a vial, not an amp. It has a rubber stopper that closes itself back up after the needle is removed. It does not last forever but a 20-23g needle should not tear it up too bad.

1g of T for 12 weeks + 40mg dbol is a mistake for a first cycle.

You don't need anywhere near that amount for that amount of weeks. 500-600mg for 8 weeks is much more appropriate. I wouldn't even use the dbol in a first cycle.

You haven't mentioned which AI you are going to use. Do some more reading and figure that out.

Get some protein in you before bed.

I would never take adderall, ever. It is a catabolic amphetemine that has no place in a muscle building lifestyle. If you have a medical need for it, fine. But if you use it recreationally for school I'd say kick the habit. About it's toxicity, I'm sure you can ask your doctor about that. And if you don't have a prescription, well yeahh you heard my opinion already


Credit to you for thinking things out a bit and also giving us your stats. That said, there's no need to cycle at age 20. Certainly many have done so before you without repercussion, but the fact remains, your endocrine system is going full bore, you may not have even finished growing (doubtful, I know), so why throw a wrench into things? Screwing up your HPTA is hardly unheard of in younger users, so why risk it?

Additionally, a 12 weeker at 1g per is overkill. If you start off running a 12g cycle, where do you plan to be in a couple of years?

Not what you want to hear, but thinking long-term is the only way to go with AAS.


concerning the AI, would you reccomend Arimidex or something along the lines of Proviron? I was under the influence that some extra Nolva sitting around would be ok?

with proper cycling you still think my body can develop tolerance to this? It seems half the time that I am fighting just to mantain mass.


Proviron is an AAS; albeit not a strong one. It may have anti-estrogenic properties but should not be relied on as the sole means of estrogen control.

Arimidex is a common choice.

Nolvadex is a SERM. Not to be used during cycle unless there is an emergency. Proper planning should prevent such an emergency.

And about your question to WTMN
Tolerance isnt really the right way to describe the reason why advanced users need higher dosages. I feel that higher doses are need according to how much muscle mass a person has added above their "natural limit". There are plenty of reasons to start as low as possible and work your way up (cost, side effects being the biggies). I still use very low doses compared to many people I know, simply because I can easily grow on 700-900mg of total AAS per week.

Struggling to maintain mass is a red flag for a possible unsuccessful cycle. If you aren't gaining weight now you wont gain much weight on cycle, and you certainly won't have a good chance to maintain your gains. Obviously it isn't possible for a natural to gain pounds of muscle with minimal fat gain after a certain point, but you should not have trouble maintaining your current condition if you know how to eat properly. At 20 it is unlikely that you truely know your body well enough to make the proper adjustments (what foods to increase and which to decrease).


I didn't say anything about "tolerance". It's not a simple matter of your body metabolizing an AAS better after multiple uses.

I didn't mean to obfuscate the main point though, which is that your dose is too high. It's the wrong way to do things. There are complications possible with excessive AAS use, and that goes for amount used, and cumulative use. Are you going to get your blood checked regularly? Do you know what your hematocrit count is right now? It just makes no sense to use more than you need... even if someone you know gave you a particular cycle that worked for him.

Then I'd start by working on your diet.

ed - I'll take the parrot out of the room, Bonez :slightly_smiling:


At first I appreciate your guy's help. Maybe if you can read some of this garbage and explain where I am goign wrong

Coming from the diet perspective, It seems that I am doing fine and making gains, and every 5 months I manage to get a cold and wash up with half of what i worked for in the last 6 month period if I am lucky. This is the biggest setback. It has happened 2ce this year, where I made great gains, and had to start from the bottom.

I am pretty serious about my training and lifestyle around it, the reasoning behind my high dosages is me wanting to really see what I can do without my garbage genes. At the moment I have access to pretty cheap supply, so cost really is not an issue. But reading some posts and articles about guys pushing a whole gram a week, it seems as something on par of insanity that I need to push me over the top. Should I really lower my dose to a mere 600mg/week and expect a 40-50lb gain at the end of my cycle? If i go on test then all my workouts will be rewritten to compensate for the fast recovery times.



Please don't. You always have something good to say. More often than not, more complete information than I'm capable of producing.


Was that a typo?


I don't think you are mentally ready for steroid use. You completely missed the point about the effects of higher vs. lower doses. Your "garbage" genes have nothing to do with your status as an absolute beginner. You are simply in no place to make assumptions about the dose you need until you have at least 1 cycle completed where you can evaluate the results.

If you used 5g of AAS per week you will not gain 50 pounds in 12 weeks. If you have trouble maintaining 220 at certain times what makes you think you will be able to eat 2-3 times what you are eating now to allow 50 pounds of muscle gain (2-3x current cals is a very conservative guess I think, 6' 270 will most likely require over 6000 calories)

You still don't get that food builds muscle. AAS just allow your body to use the food better and build the muscle faster.

Explain why you think 'more AAS is better' than the 'amount your body needs'. This sounds like a 8th grade basketball player wanting to know what Michael Jordan did for practice after he had three rings.

600mg/wk is not "mere" dose. Plenty of people make gains on 400mg. Some people do multiple 500mg/wk cycle before increasing the dose. The amount of gear is not nearly as important as the other things involved with building a top notch physique.


how is it possible to increase calories when poundage wise I am consuming what I am consuming in my diet, is it wrong to assume my body is just using those nutrients inefficiently?


What does that even mean?

Are you asking us how to physically eat more food?

Looking at your diet again. You aren't even eating a lot. lol. There are plenty of improvements that can be made to your diet. And this forum isn't necessarily the place to get that help.

One thing to know is that diets are just as individualistic as training methods. Which is why it is reccommended for the user to be old enough (training age that is. Actual age is not relevant in all cases because there are 30 year old men who don't know their bodies well enough either) to know what kind of nutritional habits are necessary for personal growth.


It really looks like your not eating enough, try counting your calories for a few days and come back here and let us know. I would be hard pressed to find where you would even get over 3k a day with that meal plan.

As for the cycle:
-you are not going to gain 40-50 pounds on a single first cycle, and if you do somehow, you wont be able to keep all that.
- 1 gram a week is far to much, even if the dosage would give you better gains than 600 a week you dont know how you respond to the stuff. I get test fever real bad at anything over 650 a week.
- If your going to use a high dose of test I would push the dbol back a few weeks (to week 6 or so) so you know how you respond to the test before adding in more compounds.


Hey Hamster you should listen to Bonez as he is being patient with you,Ive seen him be the very opposite.

As Whotookmyname said your Endcrine system is at full speed and it isnt something you wanna fuck up.Also WTMN said you may still grow, I went through a growth spurt when I was 25, 28 now and you probably will too.

As far as calories go if your willing to try 1 gram a week and stick needles in yourself wait first and start drinking extra virgin olive oil and squatting more.

Squat more eat more calories and wait, Also listen to the what the guys on here say.If someone youv never met before and has way more experience then you is giving you free advice, fucking take it.


thanks alot with your help guys, Bonez especially. I will relook my diet and go slam some massive amounts of doughnuts and potatoes untill I puke. I will be back in a few months with results.


maybe avoid the doughnuts.



Count your calories - take 2 weeks, and count every calorie from any and all drinks, liquid and solid food put into your mouth - also add up the total protein, carbs and fat for each day.

The first week you will be on best behaviour - so that is why 2 weeks is needed, the second week is almost always a more accurate snapshot of weekly intake.

Once you have that work out what you need to eat.. the simplist way which i will go over here is to;
(1) Make sure your Macronutrient breakdown is around 30:50:20 - 35:55:10 - 35:50:15 (PRO:CHO:FAT). As someone who is naturally slim and lean (ectomorph) the carbs are very necessary - dont worry about simple carbs too much either, insulin is your buddy.
(2) Add 500Kcals to the total intake and add another 500 2 weeks after that. In 4 weeks see if you have gained, if no or 1-2lbs, add another 10% total caloric intake and keep following this every 4 weeks until you feel you are gaining too much fat, if you gained fat cut the calories added by half (250kcals) and continue along with that amount for another 2-4 weeks before adding more.
The reason the time-frames are vague is simply because you need to judge your progress on a weekly scale. Try not to look at your physique or weigh yourself inbetween, and when you do assess yourself do it at the same time (on waking is good) on the same day of the week.
This is to try to get a little 'control' into the assessment - tests are supposed to be controlled environments (not so much in this case).
Use the mirror to assess yourself as well as the scales, if you have someone to test your bodyfat with callipers, even better - but IMO photos and/or the mirror are the best bet - with photos being the most accurate representation of what you look like to others.

This is a very rudamentary way to improve a gaining diet - another 'quick fix' way is to simply take your bodyweight, multiply it by 20 and aim for that many calories in the ratios given above of pro:cho:fat. This is quite effective too.

I would normally totally assess a clients caloric requirements more thoroughly and in much more detail but as someone rightly suggested, this is not the place.

I think you have enough to go on there for 6 months.


For a first cycle, above 350mg/wk is plenty - with many opting for 500mg/wk (the 'if you going to get suppressed anyway, may as well do it properly' philosophy).

1000mg/wk is a dose reserved ONLY for those who are many lbs over their natural peak, those who have many years of AAS use under their belt. It doesnt take too long to get to that dose but it isnt a dose you'd take to start - ever. Not even you, with excellent genetics or very poor ones (incidentally, dont bitch about your genes, you have gained 60lbs of muscle in a few years and are tall too, you dont have it too tough believe me).

A cycle of 8 weeks of 500mg Test, shot @ 250mg 2x/wk with the first shot being 850mg to 'frontload' the dose, stacked with 30-40mg dianabol over weeks 4-10 would be a very effective cycle, able to give upto ~20lbs on cycle and likely ~10lbs retained post cycle.
This is a good achievement and a much more realistic expectation than 30-40lbs, which is possible for some with massive levels of fat and water from the lack of proper ancillary drug use (AI's).

You may want more water and fat - but i want to look like a low fat, well proportioned bodybuilder, not a bloated, menstrating woman.


You mentioned that you were getting ill at least twice a year, and these cold's/flu etc were leading to loss of large amounts of muscle mass.
It is NOT normal and healthy to become this ill, this frequently - especially for someone who does not drink or smoke (or do drugs i assume).
I drink much less than the recommended weekly allowance, and do not smoke either - and even i dont get this ill this frequently. When i get a cold i shake it off in a day or two max, when others are still coughing and spluttering 2 weeks later. This should be the case for a healthy bodybuilder IMO.

I suspect you may be overtraining - do you lose motivation in the gym in the week(s) leading upto the cold? Has your strength and size plateaued?
The only reasons i suspect this is due to the loss of mass - indicating a highly catabolic environment. Cold or not, you shouldn't lose so much muscle - unless it was an exaggeration?

As an ectomorph you are very inefficient at energy consumption - meaning you burn many more calories than another bodytype would, just to survive.. there are a number of theories for this, which aren't important for now.
However this means you would do well to stimulate muscle growth by training, with the least amount of energy used as possible. Look into HIT training or Doggcrapp - both very similar principles, and both do work for training periodisation meso-cycles.
It is based around 2-4 days training, for 45-60mins, high intensity, low volume - to reserve calories, allowing you to stimulate protein synthesis while preserving the calories ingested.
Look them up.

The extra food you will be eating will also assist in overtraining, and make sure you get in your 10-20% EFA's/DHA etc.. fats are essential in your diet, and are calorie dense.

Hope this helps.