T Nation

Questions About Creatine

[quote]ZEB wrote:
saquatch:

I think you need a bit of a break from the forum. You seem to be taking this a bit seriously. Keep in mind that it is you who initiated the original “discussion” between us. I did not "go after you? or anyone else on this thread. I simply gave the poster a few lines of good advice, which you took issue with. And keep in mind that it was you who made it personal with your cheap shots, not me.

It seems clear that you have a personal axe to grind relative to my many posts. Don’t like my political, religious or financial posts? Well, I was warned that whenever you take a political or religious stand that about half the people will love you for it and the other half hate you. Either way, why hijack a thread in order to seek some sort of vengeance? That seems rather childish. You could PM me to accomplish the same end. Do you think that grandstanding is appropriate? Can you honestly claim that you feel better now? Did you help the original poster by going off on a tangent and attacking me personally? No, then again it?s not the poster whom you care about; it?s lashing out at me which has apparently become important to you. It seems that you are the one who is “self-aggrandizing.”

To regress: Your original response to Bootsie was in fact questioning the question. It was also rude and abrupt. Is it okay for you to be rude and abrupt? Is this ?pretentious? of you?

sasquatch
03/21/05
10:28 PM
Wisconsin, USA

“Take advantage of the damn class and analyze your diet. Why do you want a sample diet from this type of breakdown?”

Since you called me out for doing almost the same thing (only far more politely) that makes you a hypocrite! None of my “friends” would have alerted me to this particular post, and I would not have posted it had you not tried to bully others regarding how they answered the original poster (there was another poster involved). Keep remembering that you are the one who initiated this “discussion” between the two of us, not me.

As to your rant regarding my alleged “superiority” over other members, I think you have mistaken my desire to help as one of superiority, and you should think again. I have no idea how old you are, but I come from a time when there was little help available. The only magazines were Joe Weiders and Bob Hoffmans. Hence, I appreciate this site and the amount of information that it offers. And they do it for FREE! Do you think we owe them anything for this?

In order to try to pay something back, aside from buying Biotest products and recommending them to all around, I try to help newbies (and others) whenever I feel that I can. If I have achieved some level of success in life (in whatever endeavor) should I not share with someone who is half my age? Would you not do the same? Along the way I have picked up many friends. I have helped people in PM (not always on a thread) with their training, and other matters. I often invite people to PM me if I think I can help. Again, it?s not about showing ?superiority?, it?s about helping those who really have no idea what they are doing and are reaching out.

In turn, as I have intimated, I have learned a great deal from some outstanding Coaches and other members, on this forum. I find myself constantly in awe of the amount of knowledge that is currently available on T-Nation (and the Internet). Maybe it?s a generational difference, I don?t know, but I can assure you that I will continue to give the best advice that I know how and also learn as much as possible.

Sorry that we had to have this sort of exchange as I am sure it was disruptive to the original poster and to those seeking advice on the topic.

[/quote]

ZEB

You really need to go back over this thread. Read my comments, and then read your responses. You have chosen to attack me based on one previous, unrelated post. You dodge each query about your lack of info on original post. You spin a good tale, you meander around and then come back to something else. Never once addressing my original question or responding directly to the content of the post. Effective politicing, not effective debating.

This all started because I didn’t like the blow-off answer you gave the original poster. You’ve blown it up to be so much more. All you had to do was justify your answer with some logic so as to add to the base of knowlege for this potential creatine user. It is not about right or wrong, many situations are going to be responded to differently depending on your personal history. I never suggested you were right or wrong, just non-responsive in this particular case.

[quote]EmperialChina wrote:
ZEB wrote:
I told him not to use it. And I’ll do it again: “DON’T USE IT.” Why am I doing this? Because that’s the best advice I can give a newb who has obviously not even come close to maxing out any of his potential by using the big lifts!

It should be first things first! I have no idea how many 150lb. kids are using creatine who have been lifting for 3 or 4 weeks/months. I have seen many in my own area sucking up the creatine and doing dumbbell kickbacks. “Hey my arms are growing I must be doing the right thing.” No, their doing the wrong thing because someone has given them bad advice!

Build a base while building your knowledge and skill level first! When you have gained plenty of muscle and experience then it might be the proper time to look for additional supplements that can further your growth. If that was an experienced lifter who was asking, I would have an entirely different response, as the situation would warrant.

I will respond everytime in that manner as it’s the correct way to respond to such a query.

That’s ridiculous…

So one should wait until they reach their genetic potential to use simple but effective supplements that are the cause of no added problems at all? So wait 15-20 years (an average time to reach one’s genetic potential) just to take advantage of an amino acid. We are talking about Creatine here, not Steroids/Prohormones. I think that viewset is just flawed.

  1. He may already be training big, with big lifts, and eating big, and ad nasueum of the “be hardcore” talk.

  2. Applying not relying on supplements such as a solid Multi-vitamin, Creatine, and such can help progess, and any safe advantage should be used, not abused.

  3. If money is not a factor there is no financial loss.

  4. There is no reason to have to max out on big lifts in order to reap the benefits of Creatine.

  5. There is no “policies” in lifting, basic proven rules are great, but there is never a “there should be or else” viewpoint, what’s good for you is not good for all.

  6. He never stated he was 150lb bicep curler, it seems from what he said that he is training propperly, with compound “hardcore” lifts…so?

  7. Despite their pipe size, who cares if 150lbs are using creatine, much better then them injecting eachother in the ass with Test.

Yea, Creatine for a noob sure is better than injecting drugs in their ass…(eye roll) Hey, it’s also better than rolling around under a Grey Hound Bus. (glad we cleared that up) Gee… you think there might be other choices for a brand new trainee?

He did say:

  1. He was a Noob.

  2. He had a weak chest and tries.

I don’t know how much he weighs, do you? He didn’t really give us any indication that he was training properly as you claim. You assumed that he is, I assumed that he isn’t. Since most new trainees don’t have a handle on the basics I thought the advice could help him.

I merely stated he has not “maxed out any of his potential by using the big lifts.” Is this true? Why don’t you ask him? Either way it’s good adivice.

Here is my thought behind the post (I know you are interested in a mature exchange of ideas so I will bother to tell you): I have found that when a brand new trainee uses creatine it can give him a false sense of correctiness relative to whatever he is doing in the Gym. For example, if a new trainee takes creatine and does preacher bench curls, or dumbbell kickbacks, he will see results (more so than without it’s use). That might confirm in his mind that those two exercises (and many more of these types of movements) are the perfect ones to be using.

I like to recommend building a base of the “big lifts.” Then way when the trainee succeeds he knows exactly what got him there. He will also get better results and have a great education on the way!

I think Creatine can be a great supplement. Did I say otherwise? No…guess not.

By the way, how long have you been training?

Based on the above posts and other articles that I have read at T-Nation I’m not going to do a traditional load. I’ll just use single servings and keep up the big lifts.

Also when I finally do get around to taking it (still reasearching) I plan on taking around 3g a day.

That was a good article about the NSCA Training Confrence. Also I’m reading up on CEE.

Thanks for all the replys.

[quote]ZEB wrote:
By the way, how long have you been training?
[/quote]

If you meant me, then I have been doing Something with weights for about 6 years…

But I would only say that I have been training effectivly for about a year. That is when I started to try and educate myself, stick to a training schedule, and set goals and make progress.

The more I learn the more I realise I am a beginner.

[quote]Guilo wrote:
Based on the above posts and other articles that I have read at T-Nation I’m not going to do a traditional load. I’ll just use single servings and keep up the big lifts.

Also when I finally do get around to taking it (still reasearching) I plan on taking around 3g a day.

That was a good article about the NSCA Training Confrence. Also I’m reading up on CEE.

Thanks for all the replys.[/quote]

Great to hear mate!

There are a few reasons as to why the whole “loading phase” reasoning started. For one, as you know the ever growing greedy supplement industry (present company excluded of course ;)) probably felt it would be a good way to increase sales, by increasing the amount a user would think he/she would need.

Another reason is the fact that Creatine Monohydrate has shitty absorption percentages, you literarly do have to ingest a good amount of that to get a fraction of the absorption benefits. So guys would felt that it must be because they needed to “load up”. Well, Creatine Ethyl Ester has a more absolute absorption rate, meaning that 3 grams you take in, just about all of it actually gets to your LBM, unlike converting to creatinine or just giving you a nice bloat. :slight_smile: With 30-40 times more functional creatine (if comparing the same amounts per gram of monohydrate and Ethyl Ester) the benefits are worth the higher price.

CEE, if you want to be a tough guy you can gulp it down, but if you would prefer not to deal with the taste, you can put it in pill capsules and take about 3 of them, with an adequate amount of water.

Creatine is like flouride, they are going to be putting it in the water pretty soon.

sasquatch:

Hey, you said the post before this one was your final post. I should have known (shaking head).

Let’s take your recent diatribe point by point:

You stated:
“You have chosen to attack me based on one previous, unrelated post.”

Wrong! I chose to defend your attack on my answer (remember you began this volley) based on a post which shows you doing the very thing that you accuse me of doing! Now…some would call that hypocritical.

You stated: “You dodge each query about your lack of info on original post.”

Wrong! My answer was appropriate and long enough to get my point across. Telling someone to forget about Creatine for now, eat plenty of good food and concentrate on the big lifts is hardly a “blow off” post. It’s advice that I would give my own son, nephew, neighbor, friend etc. You want me to post something longer? Longer is not always more appropriate. Besides who made you the judge as to what is appropriate relative to length? I will say this, you are the first person to ever accuse me of writing to short of a post…lol.

You stated: “This all started because I didn’t like the blow-off answer you gave the original poster.”

Right and wrong. Right, it all started because you felt a need to critique the answer that I gave to the original poster. Wrong, it was not a “blow off” answer and quite a bit better than the one you gave a poster on a different thread. I know you didn’t like attention being called to that. I know you wanted to keep the attention on what you thought was my poor answer. However, that is what happens on occasion when you stick your nose where it doesn?t belong…OUCH!

You stated: “You spin a good tale, you meander around and then come back to something else.”

Wrong again. I put forth a basic answer which was sufficient especially since there were other posters answering as well. I then pointed out the hypocrisy of your previous post. That is not spinning a tale, or meandering around.

You stated: “It is not about right or wrong, many situations are going to be responded to differently depending on your personal history.”

Right! That line of yours makes perfect sense. I agree wholeheartedly with it! Unfortunately, your previous comments do not echo that sentiment. If that were the case then the following lines would not have been laced throughout your previous posts. Let?s take a look at just a few of them?

“Why tell him not to use it? I know your (Zeb?s) personal feelings to it because we’ve heard it ad-nauseum.”

“Don’t dare question Zeb’s response.”

“You believe yourself to be the self appointed voice of reason in ALL threads.”

"Your pretentious, self grandizing (sp) intellectual, moral superiority over most of the rest of the members is well documented.?

?You are not my friend and know nothing about me.?

The above does not sound at all like that open minded tone that you just sounded to end your most recent post? Do you see where I got the idea that you were attacking me? I?m funny like that, when people start throwing insults at me I sort of think that I am being attacked?ha call me old fashioned :slight_smile:

Zeb

Good work taking a kids thread and turining it into a stupid he said she said pissing match.

[quote]sam747 wrote:
Good work taking a kids thread and turining it into a stupid he said she said pissing match.[/quote]

Absloutely childish and boooorish! And I accept full responsibility and apologize to the original poster and to the Nation. Never again.

While sasquatch and I disagree relative to various comments made, I can completly agree with him that this was no place to fight it out. I too apologize to the original poster.

I’m square guys, there is still alot of good information on these pages. Atleast it leaves me with more to think about.