T Nation

Questionable Patriotism

I think it’s safe to say that I have identified anti-war protestors whose patriotism I will question:

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=24853_Leftists_Supporting_the_Troops&only

There is a line between good-faith policy disagreement and rooting for the enemy to win – I think the side of the line on which these Portland protestors fall is fairly obvious.

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
There is a line between good-faith policy disagreement and rooting for the enemy to win – I think the side of the line on which these Portland protestors fall is fairly obvious.[/quote]

I concur. They’re not patriotic, alright. Plus, the sign that read “Fuck the troops” was just weird.

Allow me to add three points though:

  • Those guys revendicate an order with no country nor masters. I think it’s safe to say that they don’t consider themselves patriotic since they refuse the very idea of having a country. Your analysis is therefore trivial.

  • Patriotism will always be overrated in my eyes, because it’s just a policitally correct way of advocating supremacism and racism.

  • The “enemy” cannot be defeated by violence in this case. There’s a reason so many people are radicalized in Iraq or elsewhere and you need to work on that.

Yeah, it looks like they’re way over the edge.

On the other hand, are there any warmonger whose patriotism you will question?

[quote]lixy wrote:
… Plus, the sign that read “Fuck the troops” was just weird.
…[/quote]

Perhaps they’re militant gays?

One has to admitt that a consequent anarchist had a hard time being patriotic.

[quote]lixy wrote:

Allow me to add three points though:

  • Those guys revendicate an order with no country nor masters. I think it’s safe to say that they don’t consider themselves patriotic since they refuse the very idea of having a country. Your analysis is therefore trivial.[/quote]

So they exercise the rights they have in this country, while simultaneously refusing to the idea of a country. And we respect their right hold and express their beliefs, under the constitution of this country. One might find their opinions therefore rather trivial.

But this was aside from the point – the point was that there may very well be patriotic objectors to any particular U.S. policy, but there are also vocal, visible war protestors who fall in the category of rooting for the enemy to win.

[quote]lixy wrote:

  • Patriotism will always be overrated in my eyes, because it’s just a policitally correct way of advocating supremacism and racism.[/quote]

Cultural supremicism – or at least superiority – I could grant you. But not racism – sometimes perhaps correlated with, but certainly not another way of saying the same thing.

[quote]Wreckless wrote:
Yeah, it looks like they’re way over the edge.

On the other hand, are there any warmonger whose patriotism you will question?
[/quote]

Find me some who are burning U.S. soldiers in effigy and I wouldn’t have any problem.

However, I generally wouldn’t question the patriotism of war advocates over a policy dispute either – nor would I throw around ridiculous ad hominems such as “warmonger” lightly.

These idiots seem to show up at every left leaning rally from anti-war to save Tookie demonstrations.

Why aren’t they shouted down or chased away if they are in the minority?

People with opposing viewpoints are constantly harassed at these demonstrations.

I can only conclude that there is a tacit approval of these assholes by the majority of the demonstrators although they would never admit it.

[quote]lixy wrote:

  • Patriotism will always be overrated in my eyes, because it’s just a policitally correct way of advocating supremacism and racism.

[/quote]

Patriotism equals racism?

You do realize that America is not made up of just one race right? And you do realize that other countries are not divided into “races”?

I hope you see that statement as a mistake.

I particularly like the masks. Masks are for superheroes and Halloween.

The protesters should have the balls to show thier faces.

And how ironic is it that they are protected by the very Constitution that they obviously wish to tear up?

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
So they exercise the rights they have in this country, while simultaneously refusing to the idea of a country. And we respect their right hold and express their beliefs, under the constitution of this country. One might find their opinions therefore rather trivial.[/quote]

Well done, sir.

Dunno about the “rooting for the enemy to win”. I mean, “the enemy” as I understand it, is Ben-Laden. The kook evidently wants to instaure Islamic rule which those protesters would not tolerate. They’re against authority in general, be it from God or from a president.

If you look closely, such people were also accused of “rooting for the enemy to win” back when the enemy was the “commie”. There are fundamental differences between what those guys stand for and Leninism. Yet, they were always tagged with a communist label.

Cultural supremacism is only a step away from going around civilizing the barbarians against their will.

I understand that racism is a rather sensitive issue in the US. Many people were alive during the civil rights’ revolution and the Apartheid memory is still too fresh. But it’s really not a far-fetched comparison if you scrutinize the details. I mean not too far ago, US government appealed to the patriotic fiber to jail Japs based on their race. Going even further in time, the war against the natives was clearly fought based on patriotism. I recommend you to check Paul Gomberg’s writings on the matter. He does a thorough job at showing the inextricable nature of both patriotism and racism which is probably beyond the scope of this thread.

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
Wreckless wrote:
Yeah, it looks like they’re way over the edge.

On the other hand, are there any warmonger whose patriotism you will question?

Find me some who are burning U.S. soldiers in effigy and I wouldn’t have any problem.[/quote]
I don’t know where Effigy is, but Bush burned a couple of thousand of them in Iraq.

[quote]
However, I generally wouldn’t question the patriotism of war advocates over a policy dispute either – nor would I throw around ridiculous ad hominems such as “warmonger” lightly.[/quote]

I call them like I see them.

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
I think it’s safe to say that I have identified anti-war protestors whose patriotism I will question:

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=24853_Leftists_Supporting_the_Troops&only

There is a line between good-faith policy disagreement and rooting for the enemy to win – I think the side of the line on which these Portland protestors fall is fairly obvious.

[/quote]
Let’s not question their patriotism as this is a concept that does not exist to these people. However, it sure does look like they might have some issues. Portland, huh? Yeah, that sounds about right.

That poor flag…and that poor imaginary soldier. Did you see they used the words “Fuck” and “troops” in the same sentence? How anti-American.

[quote]Wreckless wrote:
BostonBarrister wrote:
Wreckless wrote:
Yeah, it looks like they’re way over the edge.

On the other hand, are there any warmonger whose patriotism you will question?

Find me some who are burning U.S. soldiers in effigy and I wouldn’t have any problem.

I don’t know where Effigy is, but Bush burned a couple of thousand of them in Iraq.[/quote]

LOL!

The people in the protests should all be drafted and sent to shovel shit in Louisiana. :smiley:

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
So they exercise the rights they have in this country, while simultaneously refusing to the idea of a country. And we respect their right hold and express their beliefs, under the constitution of this country. One might find their opinions therefore rather trivial.
[/quote]

This is completely irrelevant. This right (no, ability) exists anywhere in the world. I reject the idea that I need a “sovereign nation” to give me rights that exist regardless of where I live–kind of like not needing the Pope to speak to God. Whether it is allowed or not is a different question. We just happen to live in a country that allows it. Oh well, freedom of speech is painful sometimes–as it should be to be effective.

Maybe not in the US as we pretty much live in a mixed society; however, there are places in the world where nationality and race are the same thing. This I believe was the generalization that lixy was making.

[quote]Wreckless wrote:
I don’t know where Effigy is, but Bush burned a couple of thousand of them in Iraq.
[/quote]

Really? Damn. And all this time I thought “enemy combatants” or “insurgents” were killing our soldiers.

Damn Bush and his IED’s.

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
The people in the protests should all be drafted and sent to shovel shit in Louisiana. :smiley:

[/quote]
Why? Isn’t there any “shit” in Ohio?

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Maybe not in the US as we pretty much live in a mixed society; however, there are places in the world where nationality and race are the same thing. This I believe was the generalization that lixy was making.[/quote]

How many countries throw around the term “patriotism”? In almost every context it is used, America is the topic.

And isn’t this very thread about America and it’s “Questionable Patriotism”? That IS what’s typed into the subject box when you post, is it not?

The generalization Lixy was making sucks.

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
The people in the protests should all be drafted and sent to shovel shit in Louisiana. :smiley:

Why? Isn’t there any “shit” in Ohio?[/quote]

There isn’t, it all flows down to Kentucky. :slight_smile:

Actually, it should be as hot as hell for those protestors. Ever been to Louisiana in the summer?