T Nation

Question of Self Defense

In Michigan, its a 2 to 5 year felony to carry a concealed pistol w/o a license. However, you can open carry a pistol w/o a cpl. Lets say someone has a pistol in public and is attacked. They shoot the person in self defense. The police come and find the defender doesnt have a cpl, and they charge him with carrying a concealed pistol. How will the law be able to prove that you were concealed carrying instead of open carrying? Keep in mind, you dont need a license to open carry, but concealed carry.

So if the cops come after the fact and just see you with the gun, but they didnt see in which condition you originally had it (open or concealed) can they still charge you with carrying a concealed weapon?

[quote]clip11 wrote:

In Michigan, its a 2 to 5 year felony to carry a concealed pistol w/o a license. However, you can open carry a pistol w/o a cpl. Lets say someone has a pistol in public and is attacked. They shoot the person in self defense. The police come and find the defender doesnt have a cpl, and they charge him with carrying a concealed pistol. How will the law be able to prove that you were concealed carrying instead of open carrying? Keep in mind, you dont need a license to open carry, but concealed carry.

So if the cops come after the fact and just see you with the gun, but they didnt see in which condition you originally had it (open or concealed) can they still charge you with carrying a concealed weapon?[/quote]

Of course not. When the cops show up, they have a dead (or wounded) attacker and you are standing there with a gun. Upon arrival, the cops have no way of knowing whether it was concealed or being carried in the open, and so they would have no reliable factual proof to give to the ADA. The ADA wouldn’t have enough proof to convict, even if the AFA was dumb enough to try and convict a person who just successfully defended himself from an assailant, which I wouldn’t think he would be.

Use common sense.

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:

[quote]clip11 wrote:

In Michigan, its a 2 to 5 year felony to carry a concealed pistol w/o a license. However, you can open carry a pistol w/o a cpl. Lets say someone has a pistol in public and is attacked. They shoot the person in self defense. The police come and find the defender doesnt have a cpl, and they charge him with carrying a concealed pistol. How will the law be able to prove that you were concealed carrying instead of open carrying? Keep in mind, you dont need a license to open carry, but concealed carry.

So if the cops come after the fact and just see you with the gun, but they didnt see in which condition you originally had it (open or concealed) can they still charge you with carrying a concealed weapon?[/quote]

Of course not. When the cops show up, they have a dead (or wounded) attacker and you are standing there with a gun. Upon arrival, the cops have no way of knowing whether it was concealed or being carried in the open, and so they would have no reliable factual proof to give to the ADA. The ADA wouldn’t have enough proof to convict, even if the AFA was dumb enough to try and convict a person who just successfully defended himself from an assailant, which I wouldn’t think he would be.

Use common sense.[/quote]

It’s never an open/closed story with the law though… it’s more about who’s doing the shooting and what happened as far as who gets charged with what.

Wouldn’t the concealed weapon charge would be secondary to determining whether the shooting was self defense in the first place? Open carry tends to draw attention, so I’m sure any witness interviewed would also mention that you were walking around with a gun out.

That, or the police would notice that you have your holster on the outside of your clothes?

Im a security guard for a church in a not so good part of Detroit, Im working on getting a cpl, but I need to come by an extra $200 (105 for the state and 100 for the class). I’ve been thinking of open carrying in the meantime. I know some people may say open carry might draw trouble on the other hand, some store security guards open carry and I never heard of someone shooting them (or trying to) and taking their weapon to rob the store.

But I dont want to be in a situation where if I have to act in self defense, I risk going to prison and having a felony record for

  1. Defending myself
  2. Not having the money to pay the state to exercise a right (or privilege the way they act) given to me by the 2A.

Just don’t be black with a weapon and a dead body when the cops show up.

Yeah, I’m going there…

Gordon Liddy said better to be tried by twelve than carried by six. I don’t carry a gun but if I felt it nessasary I would reguardless of any law

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
Gordon Liddy said better to be tried by twelve than carried by six. I don’t carry a gun but if I felt it nessasary I would reguardless of any law[/quote]

That’s an awful saying that only wanna-be tough guys go around with.

If someone sees you with a gun, i would think that to be more a deterrent to attacking you than being unarmed. Wierdo liberals might be more likely to be nervous/afraid because you have a weapon, but if you are a uniformed security guard, they may not even care.

Im pretty sure criminals are more eager to attack an easy(defenseless) target than one which is armed.

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
Gordon Liddy said better to be tried by twelve than carried by six. I don’t carry a gun but if I felt it nessasary I would reguardless of any law[/quote]

That’s an awful saying that only wanna-be tough guys go around with.[/quote]

You are entitked to your opinion , I think it is more a philosophy

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
Gordon Liddy said better to be tried by twelve than carried by six. I don’t carry a gun but if I felt it nessasary I would reguardless of any law[/quote]

In Arizona they have constitutional carry so you dont need a license to carry concealed or openly which is the way it should be.

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

It’s never an open/closed story with the law though… it’s more about who’s doing the shooting and what happened as far as who gets charged with what.[/quote]

Yes, it’s exactly about who’s doing the shooting (and whether it was legitimately in self-defense or not), not whether the person was concealing it or carrying it openly, neither of which anyone can prove after the fact.

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

It’s never an open/closed story with the law though… it’s more about who’s doing the shooting and what happened as far as who gets charged with what.[/quote]

Yes, it’s exactly about who’s doing the shooting (and whether it was legitimately in self-defense or not), not whether the person was concealing it or carrying it openly, neither of which anyone can prove after the fact.[/quote]

Yea, they’re not even charges that would matter. They’d probably be rolled over into whatever you’re getting charged with.

[quote]clip11 wrote:
Im a security guard for a church in a not so good part of Detroit, Im working on getting a cpl, but I need to come by an extra $200 (105 for the state and 100 for the class). I’ve been thinking of open carrying in the meantime. I know some people may say open carry might draw trouble on the other hand, some store security guards open carry and I never heard of someone shooting them (or trying to) and taking their weapon to rob the store.

But I dont want to be in a situation where if I have to act in self defense, I risk going to prison and having a felony record for

  1. Defending myself
  2. Not having the money to pay the state to exercise a right (or privilege the way they act) given to me by the 2A.[/quote]

If you are in Detroit you will get a lot more leeway than in the suburbs. But laws in Michigan are very unfavorable to gun owners. Just to transport a firearm you have to have two lock boxes, one for the firearm, one for the ammo and you have to keep them on opposite sides of the trunk of a car. If memory serves me correctly you have to be a uniformed security guard to be able to open carry and you have to be on the premises you are guarding.

The bottom line is in Michigan they will destroy your life with a serious felony charge if you don’t jump through a complex maze of arbitrary, costly and unfair hoops. You’re best bet is to get a CCW or talk to a lawyer.

[quote]clip11 wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
Gordon Liddy said better to be tried by twelve than carried by six. I don’t carry a gun but if I felt it nessasary I would reguardless of any law[/quote]

In Arizona they have constitutional carry so you dont need a license to carry concealed or openly which is the way it should be.[/quote]

I don’t carry or have I ever , but if I felt the need I would carry if the consequenses were life

step 1: move out of detroit
step 2: win.

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
Gordon Liddy said better to be tried by twelve than carried by six. I don’t carry a gun but if I felt it nessasary I would reguardless of any law[/quote]

Lil’ Wayne said I’d rather be pushing up flowers, than to be in the pen sharing showers.

[quote]Scrotus wrote:
step 1: move out of detroit
step 2: win.[/quote]

ha

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
Gordon Liddy said better to be tried by twelve than carried by six. I don’t carry a gun but if I felt it nessasary I would reguardless of any law[/quote]

Still, there’s no damage done in making the choice into “tried by zero or carried by six”.

[quote]Hertzyscowicz wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
Gordon Liddy said better to be tried by twelve than carried by six. I don’t carry a gun but if I felt it nessasary I would reguardless of any law[/quote]

Still, there’s no damage done in making the choice into “tried by zero or carried by six”.[/quote]

It’s all philosophy