T Nation

Question for the Warmongers


I have a relative who was in Desert Storm 1, and have some friends who were there too and in the sequel. They brought back pictures of things that you would never see on television, as the war images presented to the American public are extremely censored. This was a response to the war images that provoked the Vietnam War protests.

I have seen pictures of half blown apart men, with blackened skin, bloated from sun exposure, severed heads, blown apart limbs. I even saw one of a tricycle that was half blown away next to a tank among many other gruesome images from Iraq (not sure what happened to the kid on it- and you know that kids had to die there -oops "collateral damage-)

Do you think, if real life war images like this were shown on American television would the American public would let the American government carry on these wars?



I think every war is gruesome and no matter how many photographs of dismembered disemboweled casualties of the civil war you were shown you would still think it was worth it.


Apathetic would be one word used to describe 90% of Americans.


I saw some Vietnam photo's that I am sure would be classified


There is truth here.

War is not pretty, it is not fun, it's a dirty ugly thing, and in my opinion the vast majority of civilians should not see the bulk of what happens. They simply do not understand what a soldier goes through in a hostile situation. They don't see the civilians pleading for help and then detonating themselves to inflict casualties on troops, nor do they understand the psychological impact this has on troops. As a veteran with friend how have done multiple tours and some with PTSD I can tell you no one wants this. At the end of the day it takes special people who are willing to make sacrifices in their lives so you can sit at home and post about war mongering.


This is on par with "you would all speak German now".

Yes, they Taliban would have saddled their mighty aquatic warhorses and would have conquered mainland US.


It astounds me how you can read something and then make a comment that has absolutely no bearing on what was said. Either that or you're trying to say that people in the armed forces are not making sacrifices for the greater good, if that's the case then you truly have a warped sense of reality.


How can you be sure? You do not know the outcome of anything else. Perhaps, it would be better under different circumstances.

War is never worth it. It is death and destruction. The people that suffer most from war are those who are ordered to fight in it and their families -- all for the profit of power over liberty.


They sacrifice for what they believe to be the greater good of a rather random group of people.

Which is quite a lot of qualifiers for something which is supposedly so black and white.

Also, their sheer existence makes it possible to take away what they supposedly protect quite easily.


There will always be young and dumb people to act as pawns for these wars. Youth causes aggression and a will to kill for excitement. They also figure that it will land them a piece of ass and a pat on the back from their peers. Every young man dreams of being tough and callous once or again. Nothing seems tougher than going to a war and getting to kill all kinds of people for real. A black belt and a 300+ pound plus bench seem lame in comparison. Hollywood movies also help.


War sucks, it always had and it always will. That won't stop them from happening. Modern western culture is already the least tolerant of war. We already no long fight war in the same way as we used to. We westerners are the only people in the history of the world who tried to simultaneously fight a war and minimize the casualties. It's actually a new and bizarre concept.

No showing gross pictures of people getting blown to bits won't stop war anymore than showing what a real abortion looks like, stops people from doing that.

You can fucking forget about leaving Afghanistan anytime soon. The only cash product it has is opium. As long as that's illegal and not considered a legitimate cash crop, that area is going to go to the most violent bidder. It has no centralized economy, because it doesn't have resources anybody wants. No resources, no money. No money, it's very, very hard to maintain a centralized government. No centralized government, the area will be ruled by the most violent. That's a mistake we cannot afford to make twice. We're going to be camped there a while and it won't matter who's in charge.

What's interesting about Iraq, is that it is seeming to transform that region.... Originally I was against it, but I am starting to rethink my position. I had this discussion with some soldiers who did multiple tours there and it was an eye opening conversation.....


Yeah that's the reason I joined the Army when I was 18, a will to kill. I remember killing cats and dogs just for fun and to see what they looked like inside. Sorry, just adding a bit more idiocy to your post.

Not sure if you noticed but I take a bit of issue with you equating young soldiers to violent sociopaths.


So lets step back and look at this...what they believe to be the greater good, and for the sake of argument we'll use your "you would all be speaking German now" line from up above.

So are you saying that you believe all of the people that sacrificed in WW II didn't do it for the greater good?


No, he's saying in a world of 7.5 billion people there are 7.5 billion different definitions of "greater good".


I have no problem with that, however 99% of those people would agree that displacing a tyrant that has committed genocide against his own people a "greater good".

I do have an issue with what seems to be a flagrant disrespect for those that serve their countries. It doesn't matter what country a soldier calls home he/she is making a sacrifice for something that he/she believes in and holds dear.


The unfortunate thing is that this sort of ethos is not equally applied. Look at any neglected corner of the globe. Actions tend to be dictated politics more than they are by principle. Are you really fighting for what you hold dear when today's friend is tomorrow's enemy? Are all military actions correct and in line with the ethos of fighting for what is right?


So even Nazi soldiers deserve your respect?


Also, "dessert storm" is hilarious.

I have pictures going through my head...


Well first of all they were sacrificed, which is kind of not the same as sacrificing yourself.

Arguably they were sacrificed for the greater good, after their fathers were sacrificed for a clusterfuck that made another war inevitable.

However, no war afterward came close to that.