T Nation

Question for Mr. Barr

"Today’s nutrition tip comes from Dave Barr:

Wake ‘n’ Shake

One of the most pervasive myths in bodybuilding today is the existence of a 1-hour post workout window following our workout. In fact, for the stimulation of protein synthesis, this window lasts at least 24 hours! In keeping with this, a morning shake ? with a similar nutrient composition as our pre/post workout drink ? will have the same effect on protein synthesis! Happy growing."

This is a very interesting observation. I was wondering what effects spiking insulin 2X per day would have on the body? Is this healthy? I mean most people around here advise oatmeal and egg whites as a breakfast, or Grow! and fiberous cereal or something like that. But I would never use those recommendations for high fiber/slow digesting proteins in the post workout window.

Just looking for a little clarification.

Are we talking the same drink as PWO, or the same ratios of carbs and protein???

Dave

Is there any studies of Berardi macro nutrient combining vs isocaloric zone type diets or other combos?

I’m curious to see if there is any evidence beyond the case studies Dr. J.M Berardi, PhD cites…

Hi there, I’m on the road right now, but I’ll be sure to hit you back in a couple of days when I reach Boston!

Cheers

RedEye, I don’t think that science has caught up to this macronutrient combination idea yet. While there is evidence supporting the “Calorie is not a Calorie” idea, there are no such diet comparisons in the literature… so far.

Hope this answers your question!

[quote]RedEye wrote:
Dave

Is there any studies of Berardi macro nutrient combining vs isocaloric zone type diets or other combos?

I’m curious to see if there is any evidence beyond the case studies Dr. J.M Berardi, PhD cites…[/quote]

UB07, this is a great question! Spiking insulin first thing in the morning won’t negatively impact insulin sensitivity. In fact, it seems as though dietary fat the main instigator of insulin resistance.

The only thing that insulin serves to do is prevent the release of fat from our cells, which is what ultimately affects our responsiveness to this hormone.

It is important to note that this occurs any time we consume carbohydrates, which is why a morning protein shake won’t have a negative impact (because we need to have breakfast anyway).

I prefer the same ratios of protein and carbs as post workout.

Cheers

[quote]UB07 wrote:
This is a very interesting observation. I was wondering what effects spiking insulin 2X per day would have on the body? Is this healthy? I mean most people around here advise oatmeal and egg whites as a breakfast, or Grow! and fiberous cereal or something like that. But I would never use those recommendations for high fiber/slow digesting proteins in the post workout window.

Just looking for a little clarification.

Are we talking the same drink as PWO, or the same ratios of carbs and protein??? [/quote]

It’s very interesting. I hope some studies are done at some point. I’d be interested in the results. The Zone Diet, adjusting for it’s lower calories, seems similar to Berardi’s principles aside from the carb-fat separation.

[quote]David Barr wrote:
RedEye, I don’t think that science has caught up to this macronutrient combination idea yet. While there is evidence supporting the “Calorie is not a Calorie” idea, there are no such diet comparisons in the literature… so far.

Hope this answers your question!

RedEye wrote:
Dave

Is there any studies of Berardi macro nutrient combining vs isocaloric zone type diets or other combos?

I’m curious to see if there is any evidence beyond the case studies Dr. J.M Berardi, PhD cites…[/quote]

[quote]jsbrook wrote:
It’s very interesting. I hope some studies are done at some point. I’d be interested in the results. The Zone Diet, adjusting for it’s lower calories, seems similar to Berardi’s principles aside from the carb-fat separation.

David Barr wrote:
RedEye, I don’t think that science has caught up to this macronutrient combination idea yet. While there is evidence supporting the “Calorie is not a Calorie” idea, there are no such diet comparisons in the literature… so far.

Hope this answers your question!

RedEye wrote:
Dave

Is there any studies of Berardi macro nutrient combining vs isocaloric zone type diets or other combos?

I’m curious to see if there is any evidence beyond the case studies Dr. J.M Berardi, PhD cites…

[/quote]

I think the Zone type diets predate Mr. Berardi’s but I could be wrong. Most studies that I’m aware support the idea that once one has adequate protein (to ensure muscle repair) and adequate fat, there is nothing magical about the where the rest come from. This is what I’ve read on other boards anyways.

Many people call food combining vodoo nutrition. Whether it is or not, I do not know.

Red eye,
Just another perspective…

Although I think there are advantages to focusing on more carbs in the morning and more healthy fats in the evening, I too am no fan of “food combining” per se. Although there are some good results from avoiding carb + fat foods like chips and pastries, the human body is equipped to eat mixed meals.

Having said this, there can be insulin synergy between fats and carbs, and I’ve quoted textbooks stating this very thing. Of course insulin is not the only driver of body fatness. (maybe search for “Fat Loss Biochemistry” where I condense it)

[quote]Lonnie Lowery wrote:
Red eye,
Just another perspective…

Although I think there are advantages to focusing on more carbs in the morning and more healthy fats in the evening, I too am no fan of “food combining” per se. Although there are some good results from avoiding carb + fat foods like chips and pastries, the human body is equipped to eat mixed meals.

Having said this, there can be insulin synergy between fats and carbs, and I’ve quoted textbooks stating this very thing. Of course insulin is not the only driver of body fatness. (maybe search for “Fat Loss Biochemistry” where I condense it)[/quote]

I agree, Lonnie. I do focus on carbs in the morning or post-wokrout and generally eat along Berardi guidelines and basically try to avoid grains when eating a higher fat meal. But sometimes, it’s just easier to have all three macros in a meal. As long as it’s all sensible choices, I don’t see too much of a problem with it.

A while ago I asked you about calorie intake while on an SD cycle and you said that for a 3000 cal maintenance diet you would suggest a 6000 cal intake during cycle diet.

At any rate, what would you suggest for a diet during PCT? I think I should drop my calories somewhat, to avoid too much fat gain, but if I drop cals too quickly I might loose some of my gains right? What might you suggest?

fedaykin, this is another great question and I’ll answer it in my Prime Time thread so that everyone can benefit from it!

[quote]fedaykin wrote:
A while ago I asked you about calorie intake while on an SD cycle and you said that for a 3000 cal maintenance diet you would suggest a 6000 cal intake during cycle diet.

At any rate, what would you suggest for a diet during PCT? I think I should drop my calories somewhat, to avoid too much fat gain, but if I drop cals too quickly I might loose some of my gains right? What might you suggest? [/quote]