T Nation

Question for Bodz

Hey Bodz, I’m posing this question to you because it seems like you and I are one of the handful of people around here who believe in the importance of the glycemic index for keeping the fat off. What has been your experience been as far as gaining muscle mass on a low GI diet, providing that the total calories and protein levels are above maintenance? I’m about to try to do just that. Here are some observations about myself as far as GI goes: 1. Regardless of the quantity, I have trouble losing fat if my carb source is high GI. 2. I have much better success shedding fat by consuming carbs (low GI of course) throughout the day, rather than having a cheat meal or eating carbs only for half the day per JMB’s massive eating regime. 3. It makes no difference if I add protein to the meal to tone down the GI of the carb. If the carb source is high GI, I still gain fat nevertheless. 4. I seem to be able to pig out if I’m staying below 50 on the GI (on white bread scale) and still not get fat. I’d appreciate your feedback.

Hyok: I’m obviously not Bodz, but I have the same problem you do with high GI carbs. In addition, I used to experience massive hypoglycemia if I consumed too many high GI carbs in one sitting (no matter how the macronutrients were combined). I solved all of this about three years ago by going with an isocaloric diet and ingesting mostly low GI carbs (I don’t intentionally eat any simple sugars or refined carbs). This is just a personal opinion, but my training doesn’t appear to have suffered at all and I feel much healthier than I did then.

Ok, here is what I have found with clients over the years, as well as with myself. Low GI carbs (as in below 50) are the only way to go for long term health, and lean factor. But, there comes a time in everyones training that they decide to add some serious mass (At 41, I don’t have those urges anymore, but I understand). If you are in the market to add more mass, use MCL (mutiple carb loading). It is different than the diet prescribed by Bill. You basically include two starchy carbs and two simple carbs per meal for six meals per day (of course you have your protein as well). To diet after, you drop your simple carbs and adjust your starchy carbs with fibrous carbs. I can’t get into it all right here. I was actually thinking of writing an article on it for T-mag (Chris still has a rant I wrote almost a year ago, so I don’t know if it would get published right away or not). If anyone out there wants me to do it, let me know. It’ll be a one or two part series. You could do the mass phase followed by the cutting phase, or just do the cutting phase, since summer is around the corner.

I’ve read the diet manifesto and noticed one thing, almost all the cutting diets involve real low carbs. The Delta1250 is the only exception I believe. I’d like to see some cutting diets with carbs involved, also the mass phase you spoke of sounds cool. I’d say give it a shot, I think there’s always room for more ideas on nutrition.

Yo Bodz, do the article. I’d love to see your ideas on diet. From what little you’ve written here, it sounds like maybe you’re on to something new. Bring it on! Personally, I’ve have always had a really difficult time getting rid of my love handles (I’m fairly lean otherwise), and as I get older it doesn’t get any easier. It’s at the point now where I’m about ready to have a little ab etching done. So if you’ve got something new to try, I’m all ears.

I am with you guys here. I too have had great sucess with myself and clients by keeping a close tab on carbohydrate quality. I think it does work better for some than others. If you tend to be a little insulin resistant it can make all the difference in the world. When training for mas I have found that increasing the GI does little more than make me fat. I just keep the carbs moderate and increase my fats and protein. Increasing carb intake beyond what is necessary to replenish muscle glycogen does not seem to help increase LBM. If Steroids are involved things can be a little different.

Hey bodz is that the same diet that was written about in the book “Sliced” by Bill Reynolds and Negrita Jayde?? I think they termed it multiple leverage carbohydrate loading. If it is then I remember it very well…called for a shitload of carbs per day.

I’m not Bodz either - thank goodness (just
kiddin bro :wink: but here’s what works for me.
I always use a close to iso-caloric diet -
35%p, 35%C, 30%F - whether focusing on fat
loss or muscle gain. I just decrease or
increase the calories accordingly. I have the
same problem with high GI carbs making me fat
and causing hypoglycemia. I don’t think it is
necessary to go on a no-carb/low-carb diet to
lose fat. Keto diets may work faster, but they
may not work better in the long term because
they might cause insulin insensitivity and
most people (including myself) experience a
“rebound effect” when reintroducing carbs in
the diet. One note: make sure you eat some
high GI/II carbs right after your workout,
regardless of whether you are dieting or
gaining - it really makes a big differance in
recovery, and it won’t inhibit your fat loss
(in my experience). JB might want to kick my
ass for saying this, but I just don’t find his
“trick” of splitting up carb and fat meals to
work for me either (and YES I have tried it).
I eat seven meals a day - six “normal” meals
and one post wkot meal. The “normal” meals are
high protein, moderate amount of low GI carb,
and moderate amount healthy fat. The post-wkot
meal is high carb from high GI/II carbs and
high protein - no fat. I agree with JBs
recomendation of 2 parts carb to one part
protein for post-wkot meals. Just figure out
the total protein and calories you need and
your good to go. Try it; it works. Hope that
helps.

Free, Im comin after you!
No, just kidding, actually some dont do well with the plan you described. They may need more of one type or the other. When really trying to lean out, I need more p+c meals. So typically I will have a protein with a bit of fat meal (5-10g) for breakfast about 1 hour before training. Then it’s p+c for post workout, the meal after that, and then the next meal after that. Then it’s p+f for the last 2 meals of the day. Either way, the carbs I do eat are fairly low GI. Actually pretty much all the carbs I get are from veggies, oats, a few slices of whole grain bread (flax) per day, beans, and some cereal (vector or smart start) right after my PW meal. I dont like eating pasta, potatoes or rice because I see them making everyone soft. So I think GI is important too from a practical perspective. And yep, you guys are right, the notion of adding fat or protein to high GI carbs doesnt seem to make any difference.

so just quickly…john is having a nice bowl of cereal and milk on a diet? really cool. i think ill incorporate that too.

Thanks for the feedback, guys. I do want to add that high GI carbs work well for me post workout. I think the post workout insulin spike was the missing link from my diet, because I don’t get strange cravings if I get the post workout shake (per JMB’s guideline). The only thing is, I have trouble gaining if I stay on low GI ALL the time, including post workout. I’m going to see what happens if I consume steady amounts of low GI carbs and spike my insulin only after a workout. Perhaps that way I can balance gains and leanness.

Ok, first to clear up an error in my post. I meant to say the diet prescribed by JB, not Bill. Kelly, you have a good memory. I do have that book on my shelf. It was publised in 1991. Bill Reynolds called the bulking portion MCLL (Multiple-Carbohydrate Leverage Loading). He just brought to the public the MCL diet, gave it a cooler sounding name and defined it. Great book still to this day, just weed out the ineffective or outdated supplementsand you have a winner. I took several chapters from that book 10 years ago, and incorporated it into what I was already doing. I eliminated the “Metabolic Optimizer”…LOL, and replaced it with whey protein. It has a few inconsistencies, but for the most part is good as is. I just modified it slightly, changed the formulas/percentages, etc. Dr. Ann Dewise (sp?) also has her own version that is also similar. She had a write up in Muscle Media around 8 years ago, and showed a diet for a top bodybuilder, forgot who it was. She incorporates a lot of amino acid formulas, that of course she makes, into the diet. Dr. Michael Colgan’s book, Optimum Sports Nutrition (published in 1993), also has a mixture of Ann’s and Bill Reynolds’ “Sliced”. He includes a lot of aminos as well. I found out about this type of dieting (MCL and fibrous) probably 15 years ago, from some of the old time bodybuilders. When I found the other references I mentioned I incorporated some of what they said to meet my needs and my clients needs. I think that JB has the right idea going by keeping insulin spikes to earlier in the day. I have been telling people this for years. My version is to eat high carbs for breakfast, after a run, high carbs for post-workout, low-GI carbs the rest of the day. But with JB’s diet, and Brock’s Fat fast, I don’t do well on no carb meals. I like my carbs. I like 'em allot.