T Nation

Question about Male Patern Baldness...

Pharma
#1

So at the moment, I am currently on week 6 of my 10 week cycle. Here’s what I’m doing:

Dbol 30mg/day week 1-5
Test E - 500mg/wk
adex - .5 eod

will start nolva on week 12 @ 40/40/20/20.

But here’s my main concern, when I run my hands through my hair, I can notice a few hairs fall out, and this will happen every time I run my hands through my hair somewhat vigorously. I have no predisposition to MPB on either side im pretty sure, even my grandpa on my dads side has a pretty full head of hair at the age of 95. However, I have also taken accutane, which has needless to say changed how both my skin, and hair work in the long run. Should I be worried or is this all in my head? If it’s not all in my head and I should start taking some action, what would you guys recommend? Any help would be greatly appreciated… Thank you.

#2

Do you have any estrogenic sides (water weight, itchy nipples, lowered libido)? I don’t subscribe to the theory that DHT is the culprit for baldness (and prostate issues) and feel estrogen is mostly to blame…if you rae havin gother estrogenic effects, it may be a good idea to increase your Adex dose a bit.

But you are already at a faily high dose. Are you using real adex or research chem? Anyway you could spring the $50 for a bloodtest from privatemdlabs or lef.org to check Test/E2? (in the name of science, of course :slight_smile:

#3

Increased shedding is pretty normal.

It will likely stop when you come off.

#4

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
Increased shedding is pretty normal.

It will likely stop when you come off. [/quote]

Perhaps you can shed some light on this issue for me BONEZ:
As I understand it, if one was taking tren, mast or winstrol (or any DHT-derived steroids for that matter) they should expect an increased rate of hair shedding, beyond what a test only cycle would cause.

I’ve read once that this hair will return, as its just ‘androgenic’ shedding due to the increased androgens and not necessarily male pattern baldness. If one is predisposed to male pattern baldness, will these DHT-derived steroids work on the DHT scalp receptors to kill the follicle as well, or will it only cause the hair to shed, with the follicle still alive to allow regrowth after the cycle concludes?

Basically, my question is: Do DHT-derived steroids destroy the follicle in predisposed individuals, like real dyhydroxytestosterone does?

#5

I would be willing to throw in the 50$ for the lab work, but my estrogen sides so far have been fairly minimal. My libido has been through the roof (overbearing at times), no itchy nipples/puffy nipples to speak of. If anything my nipples are less “puffy” than they normally are. I am using a research chem.

Thank you for the response Bonez.

#6

[quote]Intensified wrote:

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
Increased shedding is pretty normal.

It will likely stop when you come off. [/quote]

Perhaps you can shed some light on this issue for me BONEZ:
As I understand it, if one was taking tren, mast or winstrol (or any DHT-derived steroids for that matter) they should expect an increased rate of hair shedding, beyond what a test only cycle would cause.

I’ve read once that this hair will return, as its just ‘androgenic’ shedding due to the increased androgens and not necessarily male pattern baldness. If one is predisposed to male pattern baldness, will these DHT-derived steroids work on the DHT scalp receptors to kill the follicle as well, or will it only cause the hair to shed, with the follicle still alive to allow regrowth after the cycle concludes?

Basically, my question is: Do DHT-derived steroids destroy the follicle in predisposed individuals, like real dyhydroxytestosterone does?[/quote]

off the top of my head, I have no idea.

#7

I’d like to know this as well! I’m almost 32 now and I still have full hair on my head. Should I be worried about baldness due to cycles of Test / EQ / tren? Or are the more DHT like steroids to blame (winstrol etc)?

#8

[quote]VTBalla34 wrote:
Do you have any estrogenic sides (water weight, itchy nipples, lowered libido)? I don’t subscribe to the theory that DHT is the culprit for baldness (and prostate issues) and feel estrogen is mostly to blame…if you rae havin gother estrogenic effects, it may be a good idea to increase your Adex dose a bit.

But you are already at a faily high dose. Are you using real adex or research chem? Anyway you could spring the $50 for a bloodtest from privatemdlabs or lef.org to check Test/E2? (in the name of science, of course :)[/quote]

Estrogen does not cause hairloss. DHT and other androgenic steroids will cause shedding and permanent hairloss in those susceptible. I’d like to know exactly what evidence brought you to the conclusion that estrogen is the main culprit in developing secondary male sex characteristics?

#9

[quote]MassiveGuns wrote:

Estrogen does not cause hairloss. DHT and other androgenic steroids will cause shedding and permanent hairloss in those susceptible. I’d like to know exactly what evidence brought you to the conclusion that estrogen is the main culprit in developing secondary male sex characteristics?[/quote]

It stemmed from anecdotal evidence of guys on the various TRT forums in which I am a member reporting reversal or improvement in their hairlines when they got their E2 levels under control (generally boosting DHT in the process through feedback). I experienced this myself. I can point to no fewer than 10 other cases where this was directly indicated.

The theory is also supported by comparing teenage men versus old men. A young man in his late teens/early 20’s is absolutely chock full of DHT, much higher than the average adult male, yet very few of them exhibit signs of hair loss or prostate issues. Why is this? On the contrary, these ailments do not present themselves in most men until they are approaching middle age, carry a nice spare tire, and with T & E2 levels rivaling their post-menopausal wives.

Nobody looks at your typical middle aged man with his gut hanging over his belt and balding up top and thinks “MAN, THAT GUY LOOKS LIKE HE IS JUST FULL OF TESTOSTERONE!”.

I am fully willing to admit this may not hold up to peer review in the end, and don’t claim it to be absolute truth, but there is plenty of evidence to at least convince me that DHT is not the bad guy here.

Why do you feel that DHT is to blame for these ailments?

#10

[quote]VTBalla34 wrote:

[quote]MassiveGuns wrote:

Estrogen does not cause hairloss. DHT and other androgenic steroids will cause shedding and permanent hairloss in those susceptible. I’d like to know exactly what evidence brought you to the conclusion that estrogen is the main culprit in developing secondary male sex characteristics?[/quote]

It stemmed from anecdotal evidence of guys on the various TRT forums in which I am a member reporting reversal or improvement in their hairlines when they got their E2 levels under control (generally boosting DHT in the process through feedback). I experienced this myself. I can point to no fewer than 10 other cases where this was directly indicated.

The theory is also supported by comparing teenage men versus old men. A young man in his late teens/early 20’s is absolutely chock full of DHT, much higher than the average adult male, yet very few of them exhibit signs of hair loss or prostate issues. Why is this? On the contrary, these ailments do not present themselves in most men until they are approaching middle age, carry a nice spare tire, and with T & E2 levels rivaling their post-menopausal wives.

Nobody looks at your typical middle aged man with his gut hanging over his belt and balding up top and thinks “MAN, THAT GUY LOOKS LIKE HE IS JUST FULL OF TESTOSTERONE!”.

I am fully willing to admit this may not hold up to peer review in the end, and don’t claim it to be absolute truth, but there is plenty of evidence to at least convince me that DHT is not the bad guy here.

Why do you feel that DHT is to blame for these ailments?[/quote]

At TRT doses there may be some merit to the balance of DHT over estrogen, but its a big mistake to extrapolate from that that at the dosages of steroids commonly used to gain muscle that the effects of DHT will be even remotely similar.

Example, testosterone at physiological dosages increases collagen synthesis. Bump it up to steroid user levels and it starts having the opposite effect. MPB is an androgenic side effect and recorded all the way back in the orignal literature published when steroids were first being developed. All steroids cause hairloss to some degree, the more androgenic ones are known to cause it more rapidly. DHT is one of the most androgenic hormones.

#11

[quote]MassiveGuns wrote:
MPB is an androgenic side effect and recorded all the way back in the orignal literature published when steroids were first being developed. All steroids cause hairloss to some degree, the more androgenic ones are known to cause it more rapidly. DHT is one of the most androgenic hormones.
[/quote]

I’m not arguing that they aren’t correlated, but do feel they are not causative…When androgens are introduced, E2 rises along with DHT…How were they able to distinguish between the effects of the two in the literature?

I realize there is an inherent shortcoming with extrapolating TRT doses to heavier usage, but the mechanisms of action of Aromatase and 5AR are fairly well understood (as complex as they can be) and I don’t see AAS usage as being very dissimilar from TRT usage as far as these are concerned.