T Nation

Question about E2 and Testosterone Percentage in the Body

I have been on TRT for over 10 years. have always had my T in the 1200-1500 range and E2 from 12-26. I felt really good for the most part, then I started having issues and did something really wrong , started listening to regular doctors and lowered my T. my energy dropped, my sleep worsened. I am ready to go back to approx the 1500 level again but have a question about E2. we are always hearing our E2 should be approx 20-25. I always had low libido even when my T was high and had to use ED drugs. I think the reason may have been my E2 was too low. This is the way I am thinking: correct me if I am wrong, please.
I am thinking higher E2 is acceptable such as 40 -100, when one has T of 1500. this is because say when a man has T of 400 and E2 of 20, the percentage of estradiol is greater compared to the T, right? So, when a man has T of 1500 and E2 of 20, the percentage of estradiol is much less. My point being due to the higher amount of T, perhaps a higher percentage of estradiol would make things better for me? any help would be greatly appreciated.

There is no doubt an E2 at 12 is low, 26 not so much, but it may have fluctuated between the two and this would certainly could cause low libido and erectile problems for a lot of men. We get our estrogen from two sources when natural, inside the testicles and through aromatization in fat tissue, but on TRT you only get your E2 from aromatization and those who lack aromatase enzymes will more than likely need HCG to compensate.

You probably need to maintain and estrogen of at least 35 or more 24/7. You could try moderate doses more frequently to keep estrogen elevated throughout the week, something like an EOD protocol. There was another member about two years ago with the same problem, he couldn’t keep estrogen elevated for long, the EOD protocol was the solution to his problem.

Keeping the E2 within a certain numerical range without considering ratio to testosterone does not make a lot of sense, and the drugs used to keep iin that range have their own side effects and issues. Less is more. You might be fine on lower total test without E2 drugs, if you are using them. It would seem that you must be using an AI of some sort given the way that you have presented it.

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Yes, that would be true for most.

Yes, if you are using an aromatase inhibitor I would decrease the dose or discontinue it entirely.

what is the problem with AI drugs? i was using arrimidex only 1/4 of a tab E3D. I have heard AI drugs may not be good and would like to stop them. Just scared to let my E2 go so high as have read things like heart attacks and prostate cancer can happen with high E2, and also have heard that is why so many problems with regular medicine studies on testosterone, because they fail to keep E2 in check and also that regular medicine rarely if ever is concerned with E2 in men. But if it is true the percentage is ok when E 2 is 50-100 when T is 1200-1500 then maybe no problems. Just want to confirm . Thanks again.

You heard wrong, I haven’t read any studies saying that, but I have read plenty saying the opposite.

Men get heart attacks from low-T and estrogen dominance, the estrogen component is only one of many factors.

Someone is in 2012

E2 isn’t a problem. Basically every bad thing you’ve “heard” about it is wrong. It’s basically all bro science junk that came from body builders.

Drop the AI, bump your dose to where you feel good and go with it. Low e2 is responsible for heart and bone issues, not the other way around

You say that as if it was a long time ago…

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I have many questions left, and some worrisome thoughts, thanks in advance for the advice and any comments on these and thanks for the previous responses, they have already convinced me to try higher levels of E2 . Have any of you read the Life Extension article on dangers of high estradiol in men?
that was one of the articles I read that made me decide it was prudent to try for a level of E2 around 20-25 in the past.
I will start doing my injections EOD and get my FT at the top of the scale or a bit higher and see what happens with my E2. I will not use and AI this time. I listened to the vid on the subject and read that many have there FT optimal and have levels of E2 higher than 100 and are doing just fine. And maybe this is all good, having high FT maybe should correlate with higher E2 than we used to believe. I just wish I could read more about it. I still wonder what is so bad about using arrimidex at 1/4 of a 1 mg tab E3D? for example if I cut my estradiol down from 55 to 25 using just a quarter of a tab, I still am producing E2 just less of it. is there something inherently dangerous about arrimidex? a 1/4 of a tab is almost nothing. And another thing that worrys me is this: many normal tests were done on testosterone such as in the New England Journal of Medicine and the criticism of their results were they never controlled E2. In fact “normal” doctors who prescribe testosterone never even test for estradiol. So are we going backward? the anti aging guys always say estradiol must be controlled. And I worry about things I read that said high estradiol in men causes issues such as prostate cancer and heart attacks. It seems that now the consensus is to forego AI’s , but almost seems like a step backward as traditional medicine always did that and their studies on testosterone made it look like there could be problems which the anti aging guys said was because they failed to monitor and control estrogen. I am a bit confused… I know there are factions out there that don t want healthy men so they can sell more drugs. Looking forward to your reply.

The anti-aging guys usually reference two studies. One is in old Japanese descent men with a host of other issues and no controls, and more importantly no other studies backing it up. The other is pretty seriously flawed in other ways, and both are old as hell. Newer research indicates that the conclusions from those studies is probably 180 degrees wrong. Arimidex is an anti-cancer drug, not a health supplement. I am familiar with Life Extension, they are trying to sell you some very expensive supplements.

The body aromatases at different rates throughout the body, you are blocking estrogen evenly everywhere. See the problem?

You want to lower estrogen, lower the dosage and/or inject more frequently.

Maybe this will help.

I don’t care what people say.When my e2 gets high I feel like crap. Water weight is high, I’m hot or too warm all the time, libido goes to hell, etc. I take .25 ai once a week and my numbers are perfect.

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Nice post Systemlord. Never thought of it this way. Although the bit about injecting more frequently i differ on a bit. For me, my E2 rose up injecting more frequently at even lower doses.

I think sometimes one’s body needs more time to clear out E2… and with frequent injections the E2 kind of piles up in the body, for lack of a way to describe it.

Just my thoughts.

thanks for all your replys. I watched the vid highpull sent and is very convincing. I will see what higher levels of E2 do . and it is scary that arrimidex blocks the e2 evenly as Systemlord mentioned. And as hardartery said "Keeping the E2 within a certain numerical range without considering ratio to testosterone does not make a lot of sense, " thanks again
any more info on this subject is greatly appreciated.

read this article https://www.t-nation.com/living/keep-estrogen-under-control
is this article wrong? cause most studies on E2 were done with men with low to normal testosterone I believe…
the below excerpt from the above article is a bit unnerving…
“When researchers monitored the estrogen levels of 501 men with chronic heart failure, men with estradiol (the most “potent” form of estrogen) in the normal range (between 21.80 pg/ml and 30.11 pg/ml) had the fewest deaths during a three-year period. Men with the highest levels (above 37.99) had 133 percent more deaths during the same period. However, the men with the lowest estrogen levels (below 12.90) fared the worst as they experienced 317% more deaths.”
I will try increasing my estradiol as suggested by you guys, but what is your take on the above quote? Thanks again so much.

There are no long term studies of men on TRT with estrogen >35, so don’t expect a concrete answer. You will get opinions based off current studies on natural men.

Some might argue these men with higher estrogen had low-T and that the combination of higher estrogen to testosterone is the reason for the deaths.

It is misleading, an association, not causation. What about obesity? Diabetes? Could one be obese due to poor lifestyle, become hypertensive, acquire diabetes, go into CHF, while meanwhile estrogen levels increased (and testosterone levels decreased) due to increased aromatization in the visceral fat?

Does the above quote take into account, men on exogenous testosterone, with higher than “normal” free T levels?