T Nation

Query: Bushy, Schwarz, Other Vets

           Hi guys, 

I’ve got a question here. We all remember my experience with the three week cycle of test phenylprop/masteron some time ago. To recap, within one week, I had gyno symptoms and major issues with the quad/heartrate/bp etc.

       Now, it was a pretty high dose for me in retrospect,(1200+mg/week). It's now been some time since, and I have thought and rethought the cycle over and over many times. I never got rid of the remaining vial of the special elixr from that experience. I now have an idea that may be worth exploring.

     I'm thinking of giving it a go again, albeit with some major changes as far as preventive measures and dosing protocol. Here's what I've thought would be doable:

Drop the dose dramatically and avoid the weekends when people are around and it’s next to impossible to sneak in an injec.

Monday and Wednesday-one shot .5ml each of the elixir.
Friday-one shot of 1ml of the elixir.

New total: 400mg/week. 2ml.
Pain factor: minimized
Frequency: minimized, hopefully the extra day w/out shot is ok.
Adex: .25 ed (Major precautionary measure)

    With this idea in mind I could probably easily get two weeks out of the single vial, and more like three. Roughly one third the dose of the previously too potent amount. What do you guys think of this idea? And the other thing is, I'm still not wild about lots of sites, I was good at quads, one glute, and delts were relatively easy. 

      I do remember though, even when I tried a smaller amount of volume, I still had a decent deal of pain for some reason. At any rate, my current 12 weeker is sort of delayed for financial and other reasons, and since I still have this high quality mixture of compounds I was thinking maybe I could do something like this.

          Any advice would be greatly appreciated of course. I am a little apprehensive about using the same mix that KO'd my ass previously, but the dosage is so much smaller, and I have the adex, and it's still debatably enough to make some decent gains I would think, especially since I was so receptive to it's effects earlier.

          Please let me know what you guys think about my new found courage to explore this once again, lol..

                   best,

                 ToneBone

Dude I remember reading your thread and thinking how much that sucked! Best of luck this time around, I hope that you have a safe and beneficial experience this time.

[quote]Bellas Daddy wrote:
Dude I remember reading your thread and thinking how much that sucked! Best of luck this time around, I hope that you have a safe and beneficial experience this time.[/quote]

         Thanks man, it was pretty scary at the time I'll admit. Just a lot of different things went wrong all at once which made it all the more horrific. 

        Also, I still intend to do my two week drol/win before this, but am thinking of this as a follow up to that. I don't want to intermix the two as this is something I really want to have minimal complications with as one could imagine. And don't want any other aromatizer with the oral cycle, since it's a no side combo as is, and powerful by itself too. Just want to keep both short and sweet and simple.

                    TBN

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[quote]bushidobadboy wrote:
I’m not sure, I mean I’ve never heard of anyone reacting the way you did.

Now I’m not saying it was just the drugs, as there may have been some ‘environmental contamination’ issues. However, I would want to run a test series on myself if I were you, to make sure it wasn’t going to happen again.

We can’t have you popping your clogs just yet cos you’ve still got logs to report, lol.

Bushy
[/quote]

       Ok, can you possibly exemplify on that then?

I posted again, but just to make sure here’s an edit:
How bout .5ml or what even .25.ml eod for a week?

[quote]bushidobadboy wrote:
I’m not sure, I mean I’ve never heard of anyone reacting the way you did.

Now I’m not saying it was just the drugs, as there may have been some ‘environmental contamination’ issues. However, I would want to run a test series on myself if I were you, to make sure it wasn’t going to happen again.

We can’t have you popping your clogs just yet cos you’ve still got logs to report, lol.

Bushy
[/quote]

       So what would constitute a "test"? Drop a tiny amount say .5ml eod for a week? Something like that?

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[quote]bushidobadboy wrote:
Yeah something like that, but considering the severity of your reaction, just 0.25ml EOD for a week, then stop (to allow recovery of your HPTA). Wait for 2 weeks and try 0.5ml for a week, etc.

Or, you could try 0.25ml, wait 3 days then inject 0.5ml, wait then 1ml, 1.5, 2ml. This will tell you how you handle larger volume shots, but shouldn’t allow for too much buildup over time.

Now this effectively means that you ‘waste’ your vial of gear, but fuck it. After all, personal safety comes before a poxy vial of testosterone, any day of the week, no?

I suppose you could do a 2 week, 400mg/wk cycle, but I don’t really see the point. The whole idea behind shorties is to use very high dosage regimes, to take you past certain thresholds. The 2 week cycle would be a game of chance, considering your previous nightmare. OK so the doses will be lower, but I don’t necessarily think your response was due to that. I mean who doesn’t handle 2000mg nearly as well as 500mg - barring the normal physiological discomfort associated with super-high androgen levels.

Your esponse was more akin to a hypersensitivity reaction, and those can be lethal. Maybe it was something in the vial, maybe it was something you accidentally put into the vial, maybe it was bacteria either from the vial or the immediate environment, maybe it was an inappropriate physiological response to one of the ingredients in the brew. Who knows. The point is that it behoves you to find this shit out, before considering a cycle again.

Bushy[/quote]

         Good enough then. I guess I'll think on it some more. Thank you for the opinion and information as usual my friend. I'll most likely try the first option I think. Seems the best, and yes it certainly does BEHOVE me to be smart and do this sort of thing with it vs. trying to "make" a cycle out of it. Thanks again mate. 

                   ToneBone

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BECAUSE CAPS LOCK IS AWESOME, BUDDY!

[quote]Contrl wrote:
BECAUSE CAPS LOCK IS AWESOME, BUDDY![/quote]

       Ha,haaa..Well done sir! It is because I'm a twit and desire emphasis on the word, we all know I'm a bit too quick to jump to things on occasion, thus the emphasis on the point you made sir Bushy.

                 cheers!

I’m just finishing a strange little personal experiment myself. I did my own little mixture of 200 mg sustanon 100 mg Equipoise for 4 weeks followed by 2 weeks off then 4 weeks of stanozol at 20/20/20/10g/day, fairly low dose. Then it will be 4 weeks of Clomid PCT. This little broken mini cycle series breaks most of the rules of mini cycles and HPTA preservation.

My idea was that the test was fairly low and Eq is not terribly suppressive as AAS go. Yet, there should be a fairly significant boost above natural test levels plus a small amount of added anabolic. As a general rule, Test E at 500 mg/wk generates serum test levels about 6 x normal. So 200 sustanon should give a little more than twice the normal level on average rough estimate.

The sustanon is about 1/2 short esters so the build up of longer ester test should be fairly minimal and allow somewhat of a tapering out natural to the test blend. There would be a 2 week down period which allows for tapering out of most esters but not very dramatic like short ester only.

I ate a very high calorie diet during this phase. I went from 203 to 215 and increased most of my lifting capacity and volume fairly moderately as AAS cycles go but still substantially. When I hit the oral stanozol I shifted my diet to 500 cals below daily requirements and increased proportionately my protein intake. My strength increased dramatically but my weight stayed the same. I am quite surprised at the success of this little experiment so far.

I have only the low dose stanozol week left to be followed by PCT. I plan to continue dieting with high protein ratio throughout. I will continue to lift as heavy as possible and add some MMA training back into my regimen after during and after PCT.

I offer this not as a high-jack. Sorry if thats what I have done. I provide my experience only to show that low dose mini cycles can be effective. I am note certain about your little combo. it seems to be a mix of short esterred androgens and you had serious problems with it.

If I were to experiment I might Do the first two shots as you planned at 1/2 ml and see how it goes. If OK then continue. I’d be tempted to take a 2 week break afterward and jump right into the winstrol/anadrol and follow with a good 4 week PCT.

My opinion is that you experienced one of three things: a bacterial infection, an inflammatory reaction (and thus immune response) to the injected chemicals, or high blood pressure and general “test flu” symptoms, which are worse with shorter esters and tend to be worse in less experienced users. Of course it could have been a combination, and these are all related to some extent anyway.

Regardless of the cause, the way it typically works is less of the cause (less injected) results in less of the effect (your adverse reaction). If you were to have another adverse reaction then it wouldn’t be as bad at 400mg/wk, so you would likely not be in any immediate danger as far as death goes. Plus it seemed to creep up a bit on you last time, or at least it got worse over a short period and did not suddenly come on (at least not that I remember), so there shouldn’t be any immediate danger.

The lower dose would allow you to determine if you have the same response the second go at it, and gives you time to stop before it gets too bad for health and comfort. The 400mg/wk would be fine to provide gains, albeit two weeks won’t get you huge. You could use it for a quick bulk or cut, going a bit more extreme than you typically would, but miracles won’t happen. It would allow you to safely assess your reaction to the hormones and associated chemicals.

I say go for it as you have it planned. As far as adex, .25mg ED is plenty.

.25mg ED is definitely more than adequate for most people (for perspective, I dose .25mg ED at doses of +750mg), although you definitely seem to have a more adverse reaction to estrogen build-up.

Pay close attention to the effects of Arimidex on your libido, and if I were you I’d use that as a measuring stick to judge what the high-end of your threshold is.

[quote]Schwarzenegger wrote:
My opinion is that you experienced one of three things: a bacterial infection, an inflammatory reaction (and thus immune response) to the injected chemicals, or high blood pressure and general “test flu” symptoms, which are worse with shorter esters and tend to be worse in less experienced users. Of course it could have been a combination, and these are all related to some extent anyway.

Regardless of the cause, the way it typically works is less of the cause (less injected) results in less of the effect (your adverse reaction). If you were to have another adverse reaction then it wouldn’t be as bad at 400mg/wk, so you would likely not be in any immediate danger as far as death goes. Plus it seemed to creep up a bit on you last time, or at least it got worse over a short period and did not suddenly come on (at least not that I remember), so there shouldn’t be any immediate danger.

The lower dose would allow you to determine if you have the same response the second go at it, and gives you time to stop before it gets too bad for health and comfort. The 400mg/wk would be fine to provide gains, albeit two weeks won’t get you huge. You could use it for a quick bulk or cut, going a bit more extreme than you typically would, but miracles won’t happen. It would allow you to safely assess your reaction to the hormones and associated chemicals.

I say go for it as you have it planned. As far as adex, .25mg ED is plenty.[/quote]

         Thanks Schwarz, I appreciate the thought put forth. This is where I was thinking too, one third the original dose, should leave me plenty of time to assess any problems quickly and especially given the fact I already went through the scenario, and would be able to recognize anything straight away. I never knew the "test flu" symptoms were worse with short esters, that's interesting and thanks for pointing that out. I also know that I'm certainly not going to get "huge" off this for two weeks, or maybe three almost with one third the dose. I got one week easily and had some still left, so I might actually be able to get three weeks out of this at one third original dose. I certainly think it would provide some gains though, even at 400mg/week. 

         I guess my question that may have been overlooked was if it would be ok to skip that extra day with my dosing scheme, .5ml eod, then 1ml on Friday. I have to avoid shooting on weekends when I just can't get away with it. Does that sound ok to you? I don't see why it wouldn't work. Plus I have those extra non-workout days to revover from any extra pain from the 1ml shot. Mainly though I was curious to that being ok with the short ester. Figure most of the week the blood levels should be fine, and then you got that extra day off on Sunday, therefore the extra .5ml added on Friday to kind of make up for it. I would imagine this is ok, but just want to see what you think. Plus that puts us at an even 400mg. 

         Again like I said, I realize full well it's not a massive gainer but it would most likely be a lot easier on me, and would still produce something above normal physiological levels, and I wouldn't end up "wasting" a valuable product. Not to mention I could learn some more about my tolerance for the product. I would rather do this and get "something" out of it, then twiddle around to just test the waters. I don't have a huge access like some of us do, and so one should understand my wanting to get a little kick out of it.

                 cheers,

                 ToneBone

[quote]Contrl wrote:
.25mg ED is definitely more than adequate for most people (for perspective, I dose .25mg ED at doses of +750mg), although you definitely seem to have a more adverse reaction to estrogen build-up.

Pay close attention to the effects of Arimidex on your libido, and if I were you I’d use that as a measuring stick to judge what the high-end of your threshold is.[/quote]

            Thanks Contrl, I will try to moniter the ol love club carefully. Thanks for pointing that out.

            Looks like you're stiff suffering a bit of "lag time" with the posting eh buddy? Glad you dropped by.

                  ToneBone

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The .5ml/day, with 1ml on Friday, should be just fine IMO. If it doesn’t work well with the swing in hormone levels, just don’t do it the next time around. When are you looking to start this?

[quote]Schwarzenegger wrote:
The .5ml/day, with 1ml on Friday, should be just fine IMO. If it doesn’t work well with the swing in hormone levels, just don’t do it the next time around. When are you looking to start this?[/quote]

        Well, I have a physical on Wednesday apparently, so I would say anytime after that. I need to check and see how many pins I still have also. Should be good to go. Could go with either one first, (orals/injec), so any input on that note would be nice too.

               ToneBone

Tone check your email when you get a chance ok buddy?