Quads Without Squats

I’m no anatomy expert. But I’ve never understood how bending your knee in a squat is all that different than bending your knee in a leg press. How does one hurt your knee while the other doesn’t?

[quote]OBoile wrote:
I’m no anatomy expert. But I’ve never understood how bending your knee in a squat is all that different than bending your knee in a leg press. How does one hurt your knee while the other doesn’t?[/quote]

I can only guess. It may have to do with the fact that with a squat you are also stabilizing yourself side-to-side also. The bend of the knee itself is effectively the same, but the lateral forces are very different between squats and leg presses.

But again, just a guess.

[quote]OBoile wrote:
I’m no anatomy expert. But I’ve never understood how bending your knee in a squat is all that different than bending your knee in a leg press. How does one hurt your knee while the other doesn’t?[/quote]

One hurts your knee because you aren’t doing it right. Squatting actually promotes stronger, healthier knees over other exercises that target the quad. Take the leg extension. With all the weight basically placed right above your ankles, as you perform the movement it puts a lot of torque and stress on your knee. I’d be willing to bet that there are studies out there that indicate as much, for those who like these sorts of things quantified.

Learn how to squat.

By the way, how the fuck does one really define what is and is not a natural movement?

[quote]TheRealMcKenzie wrote:
And there we go again! “Dan John says everyone should squat, blablabla”. Bullshit! I agree that every beginner should squat. But not everybody is built for HEAVY squatting (over 300lb).[/quote]

Sure, there are plenty of ways to build huge quads and bulky legs, but if your understanding of “HEAVY” squatting is over 300 pounds, then you’re not ready to give the movement up. If your legs are ginormous from leg presses, then congratulations, but it sounds like you’re making excuses for your shitty legs and you shitty squats by looking for validation on a bodybuilding forum.

[quote]MattyG35 wrote:
Be a cyclist
http://spotmebro.com/spotmebrotest/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/robert-forsteman-Quads.jpg[/quote]

There was a thread earlier last week about an Olympic cyclist with freakazoid quads; people were for some reason surprised when someone posted a video of him squatting 485x12.

[quote]DBCooper wrote:
By the way, how the fuck does one really define what is and is not a natural movement?[/quote]

Drug tests

You big dummy

cues sanford and son theme

[quote]bcingu wrote:

[quote]Consul wrote:

[quote]TheRealMcKenzie wrote:
And there we go again! “Dan John says everyone should squat, blablabla”. Bullshit! I agree that every beginner should squat. But not everybody is built for HEAVY squatting (over 300lb). Squat is not more of a natural movement then let’s say upright rows. Still everybody agrees that upright rows could wreck your shouders. Idem for Neck Presses (shoulders), Skull crushers (triceps) etc.
Everybody is built in a different way. Problem is that bodybuilding evolved from weightlifting, a sport for short people. Tall (long limbed) people should not train like short (limbed) people.
I recommend bodybuilders to squat as long as possible, but when it starts hurting, spreading the hips or not producing any more results: ditch it! NO top bodybuilder is still squatting. They did it before to build a foundation, but then proceeded to mainly leg presses.[/quote]

Pictures of your impressive quad development?

Don’t be an idiot. The squat is one of the most basic human movement patterns. Part of the development of an infant is the squat position.
[/quote]

How often do you find yourself at the bottom of a deep squat, outside of the gym? Let alone with a heavy weight on top of your spine? Doesn’t seem like an effective way to accomplish most tasks in day-to-day life.[/quote]

Well if it wasn’t for toilets we would find ourselves in a deep squat a couple of times daily to take care of elimination. If you are outdoors without a chair it is often the most comfortable way to “sit” and keep your arse off the hard/cold/wet ground. If you do it all the time it’s actually fairly comfortable. Look at people in the third world. Not suggesting we give up toilets or lawn chairs, just saying.

Regarding loaded deep squats, actually I do this almost daily. If you have to lift a heavy object (in my case large log but one could easily substitute a large heavy animal carcass or some such “paleo” type thing if you’re into that) and then carry it any distance you want to get it yoked across your shoulders, i.e. the on top of the spine as in a back squat. You can do it from one knee as a lunge type movement, but I prefer the bilateral squatting approach.

The easiest way I have found to do this, if the object is too heavy/awkward to comfortably clean to shoulder height, is to go to ground, stand the object on end, work one shoulder underneath it, get it balanced across both shoulders and sit back into what ends up looking a lot like an ass to grass squat. You then essentially do a bottom up squat, get settled and start walking.

As I said, I do this daily with near maximal (for me) loads. I’ve never hopped on a scale with one of these logs, but I can assure you that they are reasonably heavy. I am 6’4", although maybe a little short legged relative to my torso. I have been doing this regularly for almost 9 years (I know, I should have stayed in school) with no ill effects.

[quote]batman730 wrote:
Well if it wasn’t for toilets we would find ourselves in a deep squat a couple of times daily to take care of elimination. If you are outdoors without a chair it is often the most comfortable way to “sit” and keep your arse off the hard/cold/wet ground. If you do it all the time it’s actually fairly comfortable. Look at people in the third world. Not suggesting we give up toilets or lawn chairs, just saying.

Regarding loaded deep squats, actually I do this almost daily. If you have to lift a heavy object (in my case large log but one could easily substitute a large heavy animal carcass or some such “paleo” type thing if you’re into that) and then carry it any distance you want to get it yoked across your shoulders, i.e. the on top of the spine as in a back squat. You can do it from one knee as a lunge type movement, but I prefer the bilateral squatting approach.

The easiest way I have found to do this, if the object is too heavy/awkward to comfortably clean to shoulder height, is to go to ground, stand the object on end, work one shoulder underneath it, get it balanced across both shoulders and sit back into what ends up looking a lot like an ass to grass squat. You then essentially do a bottom up squat, get settled and start walking.

As I said, I do this daily with near maximal (for me) loads. I’ve never hopped on a scale with one of these logs, but I can assure you that they are reasonably heavy. I am 6’4", although maybe a little short legged relative to my torso. I have been doing this regularly for almost 9 years (I know, I should have stayed in school) with no ill effects.

[/quote]

Two points:

  1. The squat hybrid you describe in paragraph three of your piece is called a Steinborn squat
  2. Lifting logs sounds freakin’ awesome

[quote]legendaryblaze wrote:

[quote]Consul wrote:

[quote]bcingu wrote:

[quote]Consul wrote:

[quote]TheRealMcKenzie wrote:
And there we go again! “Dan John says everyone should squat, blablabla”. Bullshit! I agree that every beginner should squat. But not everybody is built for HEAVY squatting (over 300lb). Squat is not more of a natural movement then let’s say upright rows. Still everybody agrees that upright rows could wreck your shouders. Idem for Neck Presses (shoulders), Skull crushers (triceps) etc.
Everybody is built in a different way. Problem is that bodybuilding evolved from weightlifting, a sport for short people. Tall (long limbed) people should not train like short (limbed) people.
I recommend bodybuilders to squat as long as possible, but when it starts hurting, spreading the hips or not producing any more results: ditch it! NO top bodybuilder is still squatting. They did it before to build a foundation, but then proceeded to mainly leg presses.[/quote]

Pictures of your impressive quad development?

Don’t be an idiot. The squat is one of the most basic human movement patterns. Part of the development of an infant is the squat position.
[/quote]

How often do you find yourself at the bottom of a deep squat, outside of the gym? Let alone with a heavy weight on top of your spine? Doesn’t seem like an effective way to accomplish most tasks in day-to-day life.[/quote]

I’ve never stood up with 400 pounds in my hands outside of a gym, but that doesn’t mean I shouldn’t deadlift.
[/quote]

Dumb argument.[/quote]

having big muscles is not a normal thing so why compare it to normal activities? logic fail

Although I’m not lifting particularly heavy loads (recent PR was only 250x10), squats don’t hurt my knees at all. In fact I only have one patella and have found squats to be one of the best overall rehab exercises.

If squats are hurting your knees as much as OP says, then I think the issue must lie with the form of whoever is doing the squatting; when it comes to guys like Tate and Wendler, you hear about plenty of pec tears and shoulder injuries, but knee issues are never mentioned and these guys move serious weight on an almost daily basis.

how are leg presses better for your knees? it is a similar movement. the leg press is easier because you are reclining. that is why you want to do it. i personaly hate the leg press because i have a herniated disc from deadlifting(like alot of people). i see most people not go very deep on the leg press, i wonder if they are instinctively trying to protect their backs.
if you are looking for a safer partial leg exercise maybe try backwards sled drags. though, it puts more pressure on your patellar tendon

[quote]Consul wrote:

[quote]bcingu wrote:

[quote]Consul wrote:

[quote]TheRealMcKenzie wrote:
And there we go again! “Dan John says everyone should squat, blablabla”. Bullshit! I agree that every beginner should squat. But not everybody is built for HEAVY squatting (over 300lb). Squat is not more of a natural movement then let’s say upright rows. Still everybody agrees that upright rows could wreck your shouders. Idem for Neck Presses (shoulders), Skull crushers (triceps) etc.
Everybody is built in a different way. Problem is that bodybuilding evolved from weightlifting, a sport for short people. Tall (long limbed) people should not train like short (limbed) people.
I recommend bodybuilders to squat as long as possible, but when it starts hurting, spreading the hips or not producing any more results: ditch it! NO top bodybuilder is still squatting. They did it before to build a foundation, but then proceeded to mainly leg presses.[/quote]

Pictures of your impressive quad development?

Don’t be an idiot. The squat is one of the most basic human movement patterns. Part of the development of an infant is the squat position.
[/quote]

How often do you find yourself at the bottom of a deep squat, outside of the gym? Let alone with a heavy weight on top of your spine? Doesn’t seem like an effective way to accomplish most tasks in day-to-day life.[/quote]

I’ve never stood up with 400 pounds in my hands outside of a gym, but that doesn’t mean I shouldn’t deadlift.
[/quote]

You shouldn’t if it causes you pain. Unless your main priority is impressing T-Nation authors.

[quote]Ct. Rockula wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:
By the way, how the fuck does one really define what is and is not a natural movement?[/quote]

Drug tests

You big dummy

cues sanford and son theme[/quote]
I met a Persian woman last week. What’s the best way to proceed here?

[quote]Consul wrote:

[quote]batman730 wrote:
Well if it wasn’t for toilets we would find ourselves in a deep squat a couple of times daily to take care of elimination. If you are outdoors without a chair it is often the most comfortable way to “sit” and keep your arse off the hard/cold/wet ground. If you do it all the time it’s actually fairly comfortable. Look at people in the third world. Not suggesting we give up toilets or lawn chairs, just saying.

Regarding loaded deep squats, actually I do this almost daily. If you have to lift a heavy object (in my case large log but one could easily substitute a large heavy animal carcass or some such “paleo” type thing if you’re into that) and then carry it any distance you want to get it yoked across your shoulders, i.e. the on top of the spine as in a back squat. You can do it from one knee as a lunge type movement, but I prefer the bilateral squatting approach.

The easiest way I have found to do this, if the object is too heavy/awkward to comfortably clean to shoulder height, is to go to ground, stand the object on end, work one shoulder underneath it, get it balanced across both shoulders and sit back into what ends up looking a lot like an ass to grass squat. You then essentially do a bottom up squat, get settled and start walking.

As I said, I do this daily with near maximal (for me) loads. I’ve never hopped on a scale with one of these logs, but I can assure you that they are reasonably heavy. I am 6’4", although maybe a little short legged relative to my torso. I have been doing this regularly for almost 9 years (I know, I should have stayed in school) with no ill effects.

[/quote]

Two points:

  1. The squat hybrid you describe in paragraph three of your piece is called a Steinborn squat

  2. Lifting logs sounds freakin’ awesome[/quote]

Thanks, didn’t know. Although now that you mention it I seem to remember that being covered in a recent article.

It is awesome. In fact it’s almost awesome enough to make up for the fact that you have to lift logs cause it’s your job.

[quote]batman730 wrote:

[quote]bcingu wrote:

[quote]Consul wrote:

[quote]TheRealMcKenzie wrote:
And there we go again! “Dan John says everyone should squat, blablabla”. Bullshit! I agree that every beginner should squat. But not everybody is built for HEAVY squatting (over 300lb). Squat is not more of a natural movement then let’s say upright rows. Still everybody agrees that upright rows could wreck your shouders. Idem for Neck Presses (shoulders), Skull crushers (triceps) etc.
Everybody is built in a different way. Problem is that bodybuilding evolved from weightlifting, a sport for short people. Tall (long limbed) people should not train like short (limbed) people.
I recommend bodybuilders to squat as long as possible, but when it starts hurting, spreading the hips or not producing any more results: ditch it! NO top bodybuilder is still squatting. They did it before to build a foundation, but then proceeded to mainly leg presses.[/quote]

Pictures of your impressive quad development?

Don’t be an idiot. The squat is one of the most basic human movement patterns. Part of the development of an infant is the squat position.
[/quote]

How often do you find yourself at the bottom of a deep squat, outside of the gym? Let alone with a heavy weight on top of your spine? Doesn’t seem like an effective way to accomplish most tasks in day-to-day life.[/quote]

Well if it wasn’t for toilets we would find ourselves in a deep squat a couple of times daily to take care of elimination. If you are outdoors without a chair it is often the most comfortable way to “sit” and keep your arse off the hard/cold/wet ground. If you do it all the time it’s actually fairly comfortable. Look at people in the third world. Not suggesting we give up toilets or lawn chairs, just saying.

Regarding loaded deep squats, actually I do this almost daily. If you have to lift a heavy object (in my case large log but one could easily substitute a large heavy animal carcass or some such “paleo” type thing if you’re into that) and then carry it any distance you want to get it yoked across your shoulders, i.e. the on top of the spine as in a back squat. You can do it from one knee as a lunge type movement, but I prefer the bilateral squatting approach.

The easiest way I have found to do this, if the object is too heavy/awkward to comfortably clean to shoulder height, is to go to ground, stand the object on end, work one shoulder underneath it, get it balanced across both shoulders and sit back into what ends up looking a lot like an ass to grass squat. You then essentially do a bottom up squat, get settled and start walking.

As I said, I do this daily with near maximal (for me) loads. I’ve never hopped on a scale with one of these logs, but I can assure you that they are reasonably heavy. I am 6’4", although maybe a little short legged relative to my torso. I have been doing this regularly for almost 9 years (I know, I should have stayed in school) with no ill effects.

[/quote]

Point taken, but I have a feeling that most posters here aren’t all up in the logging binnis.

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

I met a Persian woman last week. What’s the best way to proceed here?[/quote]

-Bring a weed wacker to your first salad tossing session!

[quote]bcingu wrote:

[quote]batman730 wrote:

[quote]bcingu wrote:

[quote]Consul wrote:

[quote]TheRealMcKenzie wrote:
And there we go again! “Dan John says everyone should squat, blablabla”. Bullshit! I agree that every beginner should squat. But not everybody is built for HEAVY squatting (over 300lb). Squat is not more of a natural movement then let’s say upright rows. Still everybody agrees that upright rows could wreck your shouders. Idem for Neck Presses (shoulders), Skull crushers (triceps) etc.
Everybody is built in a different way. Problem is that bodybuilding evolved from weightlifting, a sport for short people. Tall (long limbed) people should not train like short (limbed) people.
I recommend bodybuilders to squat as long as possible, but when it starts hurting, spreading the hips or not producing any more results: ditch it! NO top bodybuilder is still squatting. They did it before to build a foundation, but then proceeded to mainly leg presses.[/quote]

Pictures of your impressive quad development?

Don’t be an idiot. The squat is one of the most basic human movement patterns. Part of the development of an infant is the squat position.
[/quote]

How often do you find yourself at the bottom of a deep squat, outside of the gym? Let alone with a heavy weight on top of your spine? Doesn’t seem like an effective way to accomplish most tasks in day-to-day life.[/quote]

Well if it wasn’t for toilets we would find ourselves in a deep squat a couple of times daily to take care of elimination. If you are outdoors without a chair it is often the most comfortable way to “sit” and keep your arse off the hard/cold/wet ground. If you do it all the time it’s actually fairly comfortable. Look at people in the third world. Not suggesting we give up toilets or lawn chairs, just saying.

Regarding loaded deep squats, actually I do this almost daily. If you have to lift a heavy object (in my case large log but one could easily substitute a large heavy animal carcass or some such “paleo” type thing if you’re into that) and then carry it any distance you want to get it yoked across your shoulders, i.e. the on top of the spine as in a back squat. You can do it from one knee as a lunge type movement, but I prefer the bilateral squatting approach.

The easiest way I have found to do this, if the object is too heavy/awkward to comfortably clean to shoulder height, is to go to ground, stand the object on end, work one shoulder underneath it, get it balanced across both shoulders and sit back into what ends up looking a lot like an ass to grass squat. You then essentially do a bottom up squat, get settled and start walking.

As I said, I do this daily with near maximal (for me) loads. I’ve never hopped on a scale with one of these logs, but I can assure you that they are reasonably heavy. I am 6’4", although maybe a little short legged relative to my torso. I have been doing this regularly for almost 9 years (I know, I should have stayed in school) with no ill effects.

[/quote]

Point taken, but I have a feeling that most posters here aren’t all up in the logging binnis.[/quote]

Absolutely, I am the anomaly in that regard. I was more trying to address whether the loaded squat had a practical value for accomplishing everyday tasks from a human kinetics perspective.

I think it’s reasonable to imagine that lifting heavy objects from the ground onto our shoulders then standing and carrying it would have value for us and so might well be included in our “natural” movement pattern (as much as dislike discussing anything in terms of “natural”). That’s all.

[quote]batman730 wrote:
Absolutely, I am the anomaly in that regard. I was more trying to address whether the loaded squat had a practical value for accomplishing everyday tasks from a human kinetics perspective.

I think it’s reasonable to imagine that lifting heavy objects from the ground onto our shoulders then standing and carrying it would have value for us and so might well be included in our “natural” movement pattern (as much as dislike discussing anything in terms of “natural”). That’s all.
[/quote]

I actually don’t disagree with you at all. I suppose my original point was simply:

squats without pain > no squats > squats with pain

I’m certainly not calling into question their inherent efficacy.

[quote]Egg Head wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

I met a Persian woman last week. What’s the best way to proceed here?[/quote]

-Bring a weed wacker to your first salad tossing session![/quote]

Okay, cool. I have a Tanaka Heavy-Duty Commercial Grade Weed Wacker with a 155cc, four-stroke motor with 60hp that’s capable of spinning all thirteen of its fucking 4" blades made of Japanese Tamahagane steel at speeds exceeding 10,000 rpms. It runs on 110 octane fuel. It’s either this monster or a pair of those Cutco scissors that cut through silver dollars and shit like that.