T Nation

Q for Bill Roberts - recommended recovery time between a mass and a cutting cycle

Hi Bill,

First of all, thanks for all the great info you’ve shared with all of us here and in the meso site. I’m currently in 6 1/2 weeks into my first mass cycle: 500 mg test enanth., 400 mg Deca/week, Arimidex .5 mg/day. My stats so far: 26 yrs, 5’11", 4 years lifting, went from 174 to 197 lbs, about 6 of it being fat(no water retention thanks to the Ari). I eat 4000 cal/day, 300 gr. protein, sleep 8-9 hours, workout 5 times/week. I plan to do this for 9 weeks, followed by Clomid and Clenbuterol.

My question for you is how long should I wait to start my cutting cycle (I really miss my abs!)? My cutting cycle is going to be 300 mg Primo Depot/week for 6 weeks, 50 mg Winny tabs/day for 4 weeks, 25 mcg T3 (tapered up and down over 5 weeks), Clen for weeks 1-2 & 4-6 (tapered based on temperature readings), Clomid wks 6-10.

Do you think it's safe to try this 3-4 weeks after my mass cycle, or should I wait more like 6-8 weeks? I'm just anxious to get rid of the layer of fat on top of my now monstrous(to me at least) muscles. I'm at 14% BF, want to get down to <=8% for summer. I'm planning on eating 2300 calories/day, 300 gr Protein, decreasing my lifting to 3 days/week, add 3 days/week of 50 minute cardio sessions at 65% Max Heart Rate. What do you think? Or is it even conceivable to start the cutting cycle right away and then do a long (8-12 wk) Clomid recovery period?

Thanks in advance!

If you are willing and able to do a blood test for testosterone, you could go to Primo only (omit the Winstrol at first) and see if your natural testosterone gets back to at least the low end of the normal range with concurrent Clomid use.

You would get a much cleaner and faster transition to recovery if you switched the Deca for Primo at least 2 weeks before the end of your mass cycle. You would probably want to use somewhat more mg of Primo than Deca to retain comparable effectiveness, 600-800 mg/week.

So, unless you have plenty of Clomid in which case you could start sooner, 1 week after your last testosterone injection, start the Clomid/Primo program, and 3 weeks after that (4 weeks after the last testosterone injection) get the blood test. If your T level is reasonably back, well and good, you can continue your dieting this way. You can add the Winstrol in at this point if you want. If your T is still below normal then time to stop the Primo and stay with the Clomid until it is back, then spend a good 4 weeks clean.

If you can’t get the blood test, then I’d stay clean for at least 5 weeks after the last testosterone injection. Tedious, but time off is just an unavoidable part of cycling.

Thanks for the advice Bill, you’re awesome! I’ll switch to from Deca to Primo 600 mg w/ Test 500 mg in my next shot this Wednesday for 2 weeks, then Primo 300 mg w/ Clomid, T3, Clen after that for cutting.

I had a blood test prior to starting to use gear to get a baseline (I had 710 dl/? total T - nice & high). I’ll follow your advice and have a blood test 4 weeks after my last Test shot and make sure I’m at least 70% of this level (500 dl - which is still in the middle healthy range for males) in order to know whether I can continue with the Winny.

One more thing, I also have HCG, would it be helpful to take it on these last 2 weeks of my mass cycle before the Clomid? Also, when should I stop taking the Arimidex? I have plenty of Ari and Clomid on hand, so supply isn’t an issue.

I would use the HCG 500 IU per day either throughout the mass cycle, if there is enough,
or for as many weeks towards the end as there is HCG available.

If Arimidex is being used, you should check your blood estrogen levels and adjust dose accordingly. With only 500 mg of test, I’d start with 1 mg on day 1, then 1/4 mg per day after that, and increase only if the blood test at 2 weeks indicates estrogen levels are still high. When estrogen levels are being kept normal through the cycle with Arimidex, there is no point in Clomid during the cycle.

As soon as the testosterone is discontinued, Arimidex should be discontinued.

Bill, I noticed that you you recommend discontinuance of Arimidex as soon as the testosterone is discontinued. This reads as if you mean “straight after the last injection”. Surely some allowance needs to be made for the half-lives of the esters involved - won’t there still be supranormal T for some time after the last shot?

Phil, you are absolutely correct, that is the case and the way I wrote it was not clear.

A better way to have said it is that the Arimidex is needed in the system only as long and in proportion to how high the levels of testosterone are in the system.

With the 500 mg/week dose being talked about here, no particular subtlety is required here.
But with say using 2000 mg/week and 1 mg/day of Arimidex, as someone I correspond with is currently doing (and that dose of Arimidex is proving ideal for him) then 5 days after the last injection, the Arimidex should be cut in half; and then another 5 days, to 1/4. I suppose in principle 5 days after that, to 1/4 every other day, but that would be a fine point.