Pyramid vs Reverse Pyramid

I use pyramids when I’m short on time. Apart from that…

Like X said, after a certain level of strength things just become more dangerous.

I like to think of the muscle/tendon as a piece of steel or glass. If you try to bend a piece of steel or glass while it’s cold or frozen it will snap. However, if they’re heated they become more pliable and will bend without breaking.

Same thing applies with the body. I think it’s really important to warm the muscle up before you decide to go really heavy. It doesn’t necessarily needs to be ramping up in the same exercise but just any movement that will warm up that muscle group.

So a set of pushups before you bench press should be fine. Then you can start with close to your max on bench press.

My problem isn’t necerssarly the plateau in lateral raises as i think i will get passed it by the next session since i only didn’t increase it in my last workout but but made reps with better form,i was toying with the idea of using reverse pyramids as a plateau buster.
What i am wondering is benefits of the reverse pyramid compared to regular,like is the being fresh argument a valid one? Martin Berkhan who wrote the lean gains diet is a advocat of the reverse pyramid.
As i have cought a cold atm for the last few days i haven’t been able to workout since i have a fever,to try it.

People that recommend the reverse pyramid uses this argument:
"The greater amount of force you’ll be able to generate with your muscles will be when you are freshest in your workout, e.x., the first set of each exercise performed. If a set counts, it is the first one, which is most important. "

Do you think this is valid?or is it not ,due to injury risk and maybe worse neutral muscle activation due too few sets(3 warm-ups) before hitting the max.

It’s not important.

Progress is.

Reverse pyramids will take quite a bit out of you… So you will be less fresh for your second, third etc exercise. So the main argument becomes completely pointless under certain circumstances.

They work great in a program like Big Beyond Belief where you only get one exercise per muscle-group per session, or (if using a regular routine) if you have a high volume tolerance or are on gear…

Better than drop-sets though, imo (you can get in more quality work).

Thing is, what reverse pyramids/back off sets really are is a way to get more work in for the current exercise. However, you will have to lower the weight each consecutive work set… You can do a regular pyramid and stay fresh for your heaviest set simply by doing a single or double before it instead of a higher rep set.

Some guys prefer to do less exercises and more work for them (not always via reverse pyramids either), others get more out of doing more exercises and less work per exercise, just focusing on the heaviest sets basically (you’ll be able to go reasonably heavy on your consecutive exercises that way, at least more-so than you would after a reverse-pyramid on the first exercise).

Up to you… One thing to consider: If you aren’t used to additional volume, don’t just start doing 3 back-off sets on every exercise. Add them in gradually… And ask yourself how much you really get out of them. Natties don’t usually get to do a shit ton of useless pump-work if they want to keep growing and getting stronger… That may “work” great for guys who simply up their gear dosages or rely on SEO though.

Thx for the reply,and as you say it seems to be suited for low volume fas i saw Martin berkhans routine,he seems to workout HIT style,3 days on,high intensity and low volume doing reverse pyramids.Getting most work in shortest time.

I am more of a volume guy and from what you wrote,it seems i should continue with regular pyramid right?
My split looks like this:
Chest/Traps
Back/Triceps
Legs
Delts/Biceps
rest
2 days or cardio or Chest/Delt isolation and Back/triceps. I do around 12 sets for chest,back,delts
and 9 for biceps,triceps,traps.

My main goal is size/hyperthrophy,i guess reverse pyramid vs pyramid also comes down to which rep range one should focus more on.If i do a regular pyramid i will be able to go heavier in the 10 and 12 rep range while lower on my heaviest one,6 reps.
If doing reverse maybe i might be able to go heavier on the 6 rep but lower on the other sets with higher reps.

OMG WTF you still haven’t posted a single strength stat about yourself…rows, squats, DLs, Bench, come on my man. Anyways, I prefer ramping up in weight, with my previous sets being sub-maximal by 1-2 reps, so they don’t take much out of me…helps with being more warmed up on heavy exercises, and usually don’t take much out of you even on the final set, maybe 1 rep less than if you were fresh. But if that helps you get stronger in the longer run, who gives a shit about that one rep here and now? Most likely, you’re just over-analyzing like most less experienced lifters.

[quote]hungry4more wrote:
OMG WTF you still haven’t posted a single strength stat about yourself…rows, squats, DLs, Bench, come on my man. Anyways, I prefer ramping up in weight, with my previous sets being sub-maximal by 1-2 reps, so they don’t take much out of me…helps with being more warmed up on heavy exercises, and usually don’t take much out of you even on the final set, maybe 1 rep less than if you were fresh. But if that helps you get stronger in the longer run, who gives a shit about that one rep here and now? Most likely, you’re just over-analyzing like most less experienced lifters. [/quote]

Yeah what I do is very similar I ramp up to my actuall work set weight by using a lot of sets that take nothing out of me then I do a max set with the heaviest weight I can handle for whatever amount of reps Im aiming for. Until recently I stopped after that 1 maxed out set but have switched to adding one more after that, if it goes well I do with more weight if I just got it ill use the same weight.

recently ive made the best progress ive ever made by focusing less on sticking to a stringent set x rep scheme and focusing more on straight up progression. if i were stuck at 12.5kg on lateral raises id be focusing on doing what i have to do to increase it be it by doing less reps leading up to my top set, rest-pausing it, increasing the weight and cheating a bit more to get used to a heavier weight, or increasing the weight im using on the lower sets and keeping the same top set (increasing total poundage for that exercise) or whatever. just my opinion.

[quote]hungry4more wrote:
OMG WTF you still haven’t posted a single strength stat about yourself…rows, squats, DLs, Bench, come on my man. Anyways, I prefer ramping up in weight, with my previous sets being sub-maximal by 1-2 reps, so they don’t take much out of me…helps with being more warmed up on heavy exercises, and usually don’t take much out of you even on the final set, maybe 1 rep less than if you were fresh. But if that helps you get stronger in the longer run, who gives a shit about that one rep here and now? Most likely, you’re just over-analyzing like most less experienced lifters. [/quote]

x2 ramping FTW

This is also good for a bit of variety:

in my (very) personal opinion of world class nutter lifter “Pyramid vs Reverse Pyramid” is a nonsense…
I mean if i do pyramid I start with light weight (40% 0f my 1rm)x8 reps,add 20lbish and do 3 reps and so on until i reach my 70ish %.
now the dilemma starts; if i push to failure the set with 70&& I will pay this in next sets with higher & of load,will do less reps…

option A; 70%X12 75%X9 80%X5 85%X3 ( reps number VERY GENERALIZED)

or

option B: 70&x7 7%X7 80%X7 85%X4/5 (of course,just 80 and 85% sets are working sets)

if I DON’T push first set to fsilure i’m doing -basicaly- a cluster type of training,saving my energy for one/two sets…
otherwise,if i do reverse pyramid I have to warm up (for example;benching) well before my main 85& aka 5 reps set, so i -again- start from 50& of 1rm x8 reps ,adding 20lb for jump and doing 3 reps for each set, until i reach 85% of my 1rm, then go for main all-out working set.
imo, just two warm up sets with 50 and 70% of your 1rm don’t allow my brain,mind,body for a real 5 reps/85% 1rm set but could be just me…

my view; really each training protocol (even those of one century ago) works if you really bust your ass with.
choose one and do it hard for almost 3 months,then see results and decide.

about lateral raises; there is (very imo) a correlation between your working loads (on the bench,rows and military press) and your body weight,I mean if you are not injuried and train with 200lb on the bench very rarely you can train with 180lb on mp.
become stronger on main excercises and also isolations loads will go up.
IMO.

PS; because a painful left elbow I went lighter on dbs lateral raises and more reps,13kg (30lbish) with perfect form-failure and then extra reps with just one arm alternating,great pump&pain.
maybe going heavy on compounds and light with isolations is the way???

Which one of these approaches between pyramid and reverse pyramid is best for strength and weight progression?

[quote]minsarale wrote:
Which one of these approaches between pyramid and reverse pyramid is best for strength and weight progression?[/quote]

More food

[quote]minsarale wrote:
Which one of these approaches between pyramid and reverse pyramid is best for strength and weight progression?[/quote]

more load on the bar (progression).
eat enough clean food.
sleep.
grow.
live.

nothing of vodoo,btw :slight_smile:

If i eat enough food, a member here posted a link to a thread where a powerlifter recommended the reverse pyramid for strength. Do you agree that it is better for strength or is the regular better?

[quote]angus_beef wrote:
So a set of pushups before you bench press should be fine. Then you can start with close to your max on bench press.
[/quote]

I think this “may” be ok for some, but once you get to a certain level of strength or have had a few niggles then a set of press-ups just doesn’t cut it.

Having said that I might have though similar when I was a teenager…

[quote]minsarale wrote:
If i eat enough food, a member here posted a link to a thread where a powerlifter recommended the reverse pyramid for strength. Do you agree that it is better for strength or is the regular better?[/quote]
Post this question to the Powerlifting forum.

[quote]tolismann wrote:

[quote]minsarale wrote:
If i eat enough food, a member here posted a link to a thread where a powerlifter recommended the reverse pyramid for strength. Do you agree that it is better for strength or is the regular better?[/quote]
Post this question to the Powerlifting forum.[/quote]

I want weight progression for bodybuilding purposes

This thread is still going, really?

If you are so hooked on reverse pyramids why don’t you go out and actually DO IT? This whole thing is trial and error, but you will eventually find out what works for you as long as you’re consistent and committed.

You are no doubt over thinking this and have become transfixed on one method which is really not going to make any difference to you at this stage. The best thing you can do is stay consistent, progression with your weights and EAT…LOTS. Seriously, its that simple.

So at the end of the day, you just need to get off the internet and get lifting.

Yeah seriously, you need to try RPT and decide if it’s right for you. I personally tried it and kept it for certain movements. For other movements, I find I need more warm-up sets so I ramp more gradually. I also wouldn’t worry about it for an isolation movement like lat raises. You’re over thinking this. You don’t have to do all your movements RPT style. You can use it on key lifts only.

[quote]Shontayne wrote:
This thread is still going, really?

If you are so hooked on reverse pyramids why don’t you go out and actually DO IT? This whole thing is trial and error, but you will eventually find out what works for you as long as you’re consistent and committed.

You are no doubt over thinking this and have become transfixed on one method which is really not going to make any difference to you at this stage. The best thing you can do is stay consistent, progression with your weights and EAT…LOTS. Seriously, its that simple.

So at the end of the day, you just need to get off the internet and get lifting.[/quote]

amen,m8.