I don’t know how my intensity got questioned, it really isn’t an issue.
I was not at any point talking about intensity AT ALL.
I was just discussing pros/cons of straight sets/ramped sets. And why CT might use them over ramped sets when writing his programs.
On the issue of comparing the guy curling 90’s for 8 having bigger biceps than the guy curling 60’s for 15 - obviously this would be true.
But what about a guy curling 80-85lb db’s for 4 sets of 8?
[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Goodfellow wrote:
Also, guys, I’m not saying the pro’s dont ‘work hard’ and focus their whole lives on bodybuilding.
I’m just saying that I would rather take advice from someone who has trained hundreds of different people, has ‘average’ (or slightly above) genetics and has built a very decent body himself.
Then go have a look at ironaddicts.com
[/quote]
A couple of routines written by ironaddict:
Day one, week one
Dips 3 x 10
Incline Bench Press 3 x 6
Lateral Raise 4 x 10
Laying Tricep Extensions 3 x 8-10
Day two, week one
Wide Grip Pull-Down/Up 3 x 8
Chest Supported Row, or Barbell Row 3 x 8-10
Barbell Curl 3 x 10
Resistance Abs 3 x 10
Day three, week one
Monday
Squat or box squat 2 x 5
Glute/Ham Raises or pullthroughs 3 x 10
Bent Row or Chest Supported row 4 x 6
Barbell or Dumbbell Curl 3 x 8
Calf Raises 3 x 15
Wednesday
Bench Press or low board press 3 x 5, or 3 x 3
Incline Dumbbell Bench Press 4 x 8
Military or Dumbbell Shoulder Press 3 x 8
Skull Crushers 3 x 10
Ab work 3 x 10
Even on wendler’s 5/3/1 program, he lists the assistance exercises of 4 x 10-15 reps, or 3-5 sets of 6-20 reps.
Westside for skinny bastards, Joe DeFranco lists the exercises as 4-5 sets of 8-15 reps, again.
If you look at Layne Norton’s thread on bodybuilding.com, you can see he uses straight sets very often on the majority of his lifts.
NO ONE really specifies if their programs should be using straight sets, or if they just want you to stay in that range and increase weight every time. It fucks me off.
This is what I’m trying to find out.
For what it’s worth, until very recently, I couldn’t even imagine what it’s like pyramiding up. Seriously: I didn’t “get” the concept and felt it’d be too easy.
Then, I tried wavelike loading, which is somewhat similar to pyramiding. It might go like this:
Set 1 - 5x 120 lbs
Set 2 - 4x 130 lbs
Set 3 - 3x 140 lbs
Set 4 - 5x 130 lbs
Set 5 - 4x 140 lbs
Set 6 - 3x 150 lbs
I’m really loving this type of training. The first “wave” prepares you for the heavier loads to come. Sets 4 and 5 are heavier and taxing, but you can still focus on the last set. Now, I can’t really imagine going back to straight sets. I’ll probably be pyramiding and waving very often from now on.
Oh, btw. I could slap myself for not noticing this before, but:
Goodfellow, pro’s will always be bigger and stronger than you and get there faster etc.
If you had pro genetics, you wouldn’t be posting here… Unless you wanted to show off your progress.
Due to that, it’s fairly obvious that they may get more out of those routines than you, what did you expect?
They’ll outdo you on any routine!
If, however, they could grow as easily as you seem to think… Why then don’t they train with only 1 exercise per bodypart… Maybe once or twice a week or month or whatever(total sessions) instead of what they’re actually doing?
Or, if higher volume of work-sets were so beneficial… Why aren’t they doing that?
After all, they can recover from more than you can, right?
If Ronnie can get to the size he is at/was at via standard bb training, 1 top set per exercise, probably a smaller drug intake than most other superheavies…
Why then don’t/didn’t the others use some of those new and oh-so-magic programs found in every second internet-article in order to catch up to Ronnie?
Most of them surf the net and post in forums, it’s unlikely that they’ve never encountered sites such as this one.
[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
So why not use a set/rep scheme which allows for better progression here, 15-30RP is nice for extensions, and just get stronger faster here, too?
[/quote]
Such as?
(I was doing sets with the same weight, but from reading these threads, I switched to a ramping scheme and noticed it is a lot more intense.)
Excellent thread btw.
[quote]Goodfellow wrote:
I don’t know how my intensity got questioned, it really isn’t an issue.
I was not at any point talking about intensity AT ALL. [/quote] How do you know that your intensity isn’t the issue?
Do you seriously think that, say, Dorian, has a super-duper nervous system and you don’t, and that’s the reason why he can “fatigue” the muscle in one set and you can’t?
The whole fatigue part is the problem here again…
Get your lifts up in the moderate or higher rep ranges, the faster you do that without turning all of them into semi-olympic lifts, the faster you’ll get big.
A lot of powerlifters don’t go to failure as such on their ME work (or even assistance work). They don’t care about “exhausting the muscle”. And every single one with an elite total carries more muscle on his frame. vs his height than many “4*10-12 on everything”-people do.
Most other natural bodybuilders in my area are weak as fuck. That’s not just because they don’t use gear, it’s because they do a three times the volume any pro does, with half the recovery ability, and many still think that as long as they’re using x percent of their 1rm for so and so many reps, they’ll grow. Great. Won’t happen unless the weight used keeps growing at a good speed, too.
And of course they try to stay fairly lean all the time.
Hey, that doesn’t even work for most pros, but somehow, it’ll work for them, right?
[quote]
I was just discussing pros/cons of straight sets/ramped sets.[/quote]Just use whatever is appropriate… This isn’t so terribly hard.
Again, if you don’t go to failure and want to improve mainly your 1rm or so, do something like maraudermeat does (his 5*5 variant, where he moves up in weight once he can get 5 on the first 2 sets… The others are like 3, 2, 1 reps or so, all one rep short of failure. Oh, look, this is also fairly low volume, isn’t it? Surprise. [quote] And why CT might use them over ramped sets when writing his programs.
On the issue of comparing the guy curling 90’s for 8 having bigger biceps than the guy curling 60’s for 15[/quote] for 4 sets of 12, actually [quote] - obviously this would be true.
But what about a guy curling 80-85lb db’s for 4 sets of 8? [/quote] And how many guys can do that with decent form? And how long does it take them to get there? The whole point of not doing a ton of work-sets is so that your body/muscle isn’t constantly beaten into the ground… So that it can actually do more than just recover, so that it can improve faster!
You still have to remember that you need to beat your performance from this workout in the next… And the one after that… Etc.
A pro or someone like bauer and waylander etc, the guys who have the genetics (and food intake) necessary to gain strength at a good rate while doing something like
BB curls, 4 sets of 12, same weight
Incline Curls, same
Preacher Curls, same
Cable Curls, same
Reverse Curls, same
will leave you in the dust if both of you are doing such a routine… And chances are you’ll do a lot worse on that kind of thing than on a regular training system.
You really think you could get to the 90’s+ faster than pX or I did via regular training… When doing 4 sets of 12? (even without many extra exercises…)
Seriously.
None of us “get as much out of our routines” as this or that Pro does.
So what? You can always be a bigger, better yourself though… Just because the pro has great genetics of some sort and uses gear doesn’t mean that he then automatically thinks “oh, whatever, I’ll just do this less-efficient workout to make up for my advantages!”.
Or you can try to go the route most of the people who get all their training info from the magazines or so go and end up straight-setting everything with high reps… Like most of the small people in the gym.
By the time you’re doing the 85’s for 4 sets of 8 (good luck getting there without turning the lift into an aborted high-pull/reverse power clean), don’t you think the other guy using the regular method will be doing the 100’s or so already?
And finally… I’ve talked about the whole issue of overuse injury/repeated trauma and whatnot before, so I’ll just leave that out now.
In the end, I don’t care how you train and of course I hope that you’ll have success with whatever method you decide to follow.
Just saying man…
If you want, pm me your training stats and I’ll introduce you to a few different routines/approaches and we’ll see how you respond to them…
[quote]Gkhan wrote:
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
So why not use a set/rep scheme which allows for better progression here, 15-30RP is nice for extensions, and just get stronger faster here, too?
Such as? [/quote]15-30RP. (DC rp)
Or even just one top-set (I prefer RP for extensions though. I can go fairly high in reps on the first leg of the RP set and avoid elbow trouble, yet still gain strength fast by comparison)
Hm. I don’t really want to get people into arguments over this all the time, sorry there goodfellow.
Thinking of creating a thread in the t-cell where I’ll just describe the basic bb method in detail (as apparently people on here know jackshit about it, which I find rather amusing) and professor X could, if he’s willing, add his variations…
[quote]Goodfellow wrote:
This particular subject always stumps me when it comes to training.
Ramping, NOT pyramids.
Ramping involves using the same amount of reps for each set, but increasing the weight each time.
Pyramid means going down in reps each set, and going to near failure (or failure each time).
Now, as what CC said, almost every pro does ramping on almost every single exercise.
HOWEVER, some guys that I highly respect and have a gold-mine of information (Christian Thibaudeau is the main guy i’m talking about) mostly write down straight sets in their training programs.
Or do they?
Personally, I would rather take CT’s advice over a pro any day. Due to that fact that most pro’s could probably sneeze and grow muscle.
Additionally, they have incredible mind-muscle connection and have the ability to exhaust their muscle in 5-8 sets.
But I have still yet to find out that when CT says “5 x 6, or 4 x 8” on an exercise, that it does infact mean straight sets.
If so, I would probably try straight sets over ramping, or at least do both in cycles to see what works best.
Saying that, I’m going through every single one of CT’s replies on his Q&A threads and articles.
To see if he does infact mean straight sets on his programs, or to ramp up to a maximal weight.[/quote]
I wondered the exact same thing as you for a while. If all these pro’s do it ramping why do CT and Poliquin use straight sets? Definitely confusing.
Anyway I have read a lot of CT’s stuff and asked him before. I’m pretty sure he feels straight sets should generally be done but ramping, like most styles, can have their place.
(just so you know I’m not giving my opinion here, this is just explaining CT’s thoughts)
[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Gkhan wrote:
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
So why not use a set/rep scheme which allows for better progression here, 15-30RP is nice for extensions, and just get stronger faster here, too?
Such as? 15-30RP. (DC rp)
Or even just one top-set (I prefer RP for extensions though. I can go fairly high in reps on the first leg of the RP set and avoid elbow trouble, yet still gain strength fast by comparison)
(I was doing sets with the same weight, but from reading these threads, I switched to a ramping scheme and noticed it is a lot more intense.)
Excellent thread btw.
Hm. I don’t really want to get people into arguments over this all the time, sorry there goodfellow.
Thinking of creating a thread in the t-cell where I’ll just describe the basic bb method in detail (as apparently people on here know jackshit about it, which I find rather amusing) and professor X could, if he’s willing, add his variations…
[/quote]
I don’t consider it an arguement. I really appreciate and take in what you have to say, which is why I bring these things up in the first place.
BTW as far as my training goes, it’s very difficult if not impossible to write it down without giving you my past 8 weeks of training logs lol
I try to stick with 5/3/1 on the main lifts (bench,squat,dead,m.press), but end up just going by feel and working up to 1 all out set.
On other exercises I ramp up using 4 sets, and make small jumps each set
i.e - db shoulder press
20kg x 10
25kg x 8
30kg x 8
35kg x 6
I guess I could call it 4 x 6-10 reps, but it could be misleading.
[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Thinking of creating a thread in the t-cell where I’ll just describe the basic bb method in detail (as apparently people on here know jackshit about it, which I find rather amusing) and professor X could, if he’s willing, add his variations…
[/quote]
I think this would be a good and useful thing.
[quote]Goodfellow wrote:
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Goodfellow wrote:
Also, guys, I’m not saying the pro’s dont ‘work hard’ and focus their whole lives on bodybuilding.
I’m just saying that I would rather take advice from someone who has trained hundreds of different people, has ‘average’ (or slightly above) genetics and has built a very decent body himself.
Then go have a look at ironaddicts.com
A couple of routines written by ironaddict:
Day one, week one
Dips 3 x 10
Incline Bench Press 3 x 6
Lateral Raise 4 x 10
Laying Tricep Extensions 3 x 8-10
Day two, week one
Wide Grip Pull-Down/Up 3 x 8
Chest Supported Row, or Barbell Row 3 x 8-10
Barbell Curl 3 x 10
Resistance Abs 3 x 10
Day three, week one
Monday
Squat or box squat 2 x 5
Glute/Ham Raises or pullthroughs 3 x 10
Bent Row or Chest Supported row 4 x 6
Barbell or Dumbbell Curl 3 x 8
Calf Raises 3 x 15
Wednesday
Bench Press or low board press 3 x 5, or 3 x 3
Incline Dumbbell Bench Press 4 x 8
Military or Dumbbell Shoulder Press 3 x 8
Skull Crushers 3 x 10
Ab work 3 x 10
Friday
Deadlift or rack deadlift 2 x 5
Leg press 2 x 10
Chin or lat pull-down 4 x 6
Barbell or Dumbbell Curl 3 x 8
Calf Raises 3 x 15
-------[/quote] Read this:
http://www.ironaddicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3383
(he has volume training in there as well, but also most of the other variants)
Also, keep reading the stickies and threads by him.
He uses higher volume stuff only with guys who… surprise… actually do well on it! [quote]
Even on wendler’s 5/3/1 program, he lists the assistance exercises of 4 x 10-15 reps, or 3-5 sets of 6-20 reps. [/quote] Depends on the assistance template. The bodybuilding template is flat out idiotic imo, either Jim meant it as a joke or he just doesn’t really know anything about bodybuilding.
I’m a bodybuilder doing 5/3/1 at the moment, yet I use a completely different approach for my assistance work…
5/3/1 main exercises are ramped… And the version of the loading parameter guidelines which uses bigger vs. smaller weight jumps (preferred by jim) is a lot like standard bb… And now tell me something.
When you do 5/3/1, which lifts are you really trying to improve?
Your 4 main lifts, or your assistance work?
(you can rep out, and should, on the last set of your 5/3/1 exercise each wave except on the deload wave btw, so no real maxing happening there)
What do you think gets you bigger faster… Going from benching 225 for 4 or 5 on your last set on wave 3 to benching 405 for 4 or 5 on your last set on wave three over the years via 5/3/1… Or you doing BB bench 46-8 or 412 or whatever and increasing weight at a very slow pace by comparison? (if that were the faster way to gain strength, or equally fast to 5/3/1, then it’d be used on your main exercise)
[quote]
[quote]
Westside for skinny bastards, Joe DeFranco lists the exercises as 4-5 sets of 8-15 reps, again.
If you look at Layne Norton’s thread on bodybuilding.com, you can see he uses straight sets very often on the majority of his lifts.
NO ONE really specifies if their programs should be using straight sets, or if they just want you to stay in that range and increase weight every time. It fucks me off.
This is what I’m trying to find out. [/quote] Why don’t you just get into the goddamn gym and try stuff out? Keeping in mind that the bigger/stronger you get, the slower progress will be anyway… But still… Do 4 straight sets on everything, see how much bigger you/stronger you get that way over the course of a year or whatever… Or if you can even improve every workout!
And then try the other thing… Not so hard.
Iron addict usually uses around 2 straight sets, but will go higher in sets if it’s not done to failure (read more of the stickies/threads there, he mentioned that kind of thing in response to some guys asking, if I remember correctly).
His “hardgainer” routines usually seem to be getting people the best results.
[quote]Beerguy wrote:
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Thinking of creating a thread in the t-cell where I’ll just describe the basic bb method in detail (as apparently people on here know jackshit about it, which I find rather amusing) and professor X could, if he’s willing, add his variations…
I think this would be a good and useful thing.
[/quote]
Well, if people want to see it, I’ll do it I suppose.
I’m not even saying that this is the best training method or anything (though I still consider it vastly superior to high volume stuff for most people). I’m just very damn surprised that, on a bb site (yeah, right), people don’t know about this and still think that all pros do straight sets for high reps with light weight and such a crazy amount of volume that no normal person could recover from.
[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Beerguy wrote:
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Thinking of creating a thread in the t-cell where I’ll just describe the basic bb method in detail (as apparently people on here know jackshit about it, which I find rather amusing) and professor X could, if he’s willing, add his variations…
I think this would be a good and useful thing.
Well, if people want to see it, I’ll do it I suppose.
I’m not even saying that this is the best training method or anything (though I still consider it vastly superior to high volume stuff for most people). I’m just very damn surprised that, on a bb site (yeah, right), people don’t know about this and still think that all pros do straight sets for high reps with light weight and such a crazy amount of volume that no normal person could recover from.
[/quote]
I very much want to see it. Already sounds like it’d be a great thing to sticky
Professor X and Cephalic Carnage, bringing light to the masses.
Thib touches on the subject in this article:
This guy uses straight sets:
http://www.T-Nation.com/free_online_forum/pictures_pics_photo_body_rate_image_performance/19_60_230lbs
I think Bauer said he did also.
[quote]pumped340 wrote:
Goodfellow wrote:
This particular subject always stumps me when it comes to training.
Ramping, NOT pyramids.
Ramping involves using the same amount of reps for each set, but increasing the weight each time.
Pyramid means going down in reps each set, and going to near failure (or failure each time).
Now, as what CC said, almost every pro does ramping on almost every single exercise.
HOWEVER, some guys that I highly respect and have a gold-mine of information (Christian Thibaudeau is the main guy i’m talking about) mostly write down straight sets in their training programs.
Or do they?
Personally, I would rather take CT’s advice over a pro any day. Due to that fact that most pro’s could probably sneeze and grow muscle.
Additionally, they have incredible mind-muscle connection and have the ability to exhaust their muscle in 5-8 sets.
But I have still yet to find out that when CT says “5 x 6, or 4 x 8” on an exercise, that it does infact mean straight sets.
If so, I would probably try straight sets over ramping, or at least do both in cycles to see what works best.
Saying that, I’m going through every single one of CT’s replies on his Q&A threads and articles.
To see if he does infact mean straight sets on his programs, or to ramp up to a maximal weight.
I wondered the exact same thing as you for a while. If all these pro’s do it ramping why do CT and Poliquin use straight sets? Definitely confusing.
[/quote]
Don’t forget that Poliquin mainly trains athletes, not BB’ers. Athletes (other than pure strength athletes like PLers and OLers) generally need a higher level of strength endurance than BB’ers.
Also, in most cases their goal is not the unadulterated pursuit of maximal muscle mass. They also have to develop multiple athletic attributes, and perform (even if it’s just practicing) fairly regularly. If they went into the weight room and truly destroyed their legs ala BB’ing training, their performance would greatly suffer in practice the next day.
Finally, you want to talk about genetics, then the buck stops at professional athletes IMO. You really think that the majority of people who have the best genetics as far as strength, size, speed, and recovery ability are going to waste their potential BB’ing and getting paid, what maybe a couple million dollars a year (with endorsements) based on whether some judges like them or not, when they could go into the NFL and get a guaranteed salary of millions of dollars, plus millions for endorsements? Hell no they aren’t.
[quote]
Anyway I have read a lot of CT’s stuff and asked him before. I’m pretty sure he feels straight sets should generally be done but ramping, like most styles, can have their place.
(just so you know I’m not giving my opinion here, this is just explaining CT’s thoughts)[/quote]
I like CT and of all the coaches on this site, he’s really the only one who’s articles I read anymore regularly. And from the pics of guys who he’s trained (the he posted) I’m certainly not going to argue that he gets results.
But, if you look at things from a big picture perspective, then what C_C and X have been saying about the fact that the majority of huge, strong BB’ers don’t train with tons of straight sets, but instead ramp up to a top set (maybe 2) per exercise still holds true.
You want to defy convention and go a different route than the one that most people effectively use to reach their goals, then no one is stopping you. Good luck to you in getting there (sincerely). Just don’t go telling people that the other way isn’t the right way to get there or that your way is in fact the most commonly used method. That’s what causes a lot of the confusion in the industry IMO.
[quote]pumped340 wrote:
Goodfellow wrote:
This particular subject always stumps me when it comes to training.
Ramping, NOT pyramids.
Ramping involves using the same amount of reps for each set, but increasing the weight each time.
Pyramid means going down in reps each set, and going to near failure (or failure each time).
Now, as what CC said, almost every pro does ramping on almost every single exercise.
HOWEVER, some guys that I highly respect and have a gold-mine of information (Christian Thibaudeau is the main guy i’m talking about) mostly write down straight sets in their training programs.
Or do they?
Personally, I would rather take CT’s advice over a pro any day. Due to that fact that most pro’s could probably sneeze and grow muscle.
Additionally, they have incredible mind-muscle connection and have the ability to exhaust their muscle in 5-8 sets.
But I have still yet to find out that when CT says “5 x 6, or 4 x 8” on an exercise, that it does infact mean straight sets.
If so, I would probably try straight sets over ramping, or at least do both in cycles to see what works best.
Saying that, I’m going through every single one of CT’s replies on his Q&A threads and articles.
To see if he does infact mean straight sets on his programs, or to ramp up to a maximal weight.
I wondered the exact same thing as you for a while. If all these pro’s do it ramping why do CT and Poliquin use straight sets? Definitely confusing.
Anyway I have read a lot of CT’s stuff and asked him before. I’m pretty sure he feels straight sets should generally be done but ramping, like most styles, can have their place.
[/quote]
That’s what’s confusing. CT talks about Gironda as being one of those who shaped his training, and Gironda’s ideal was to do 15 sets of 4 reps all at the same weight, on 3 exercises per bodypart.
Now was that 15 x 4 “straight sets” or was it just 60 reps done in one long cluster or rest-pause series?
Lets say I’m doing cable rows to the chest and trying to squeeze the scapula together for a 1 count at the top.
Let’s say I put on 150 pounds, and I do 6-7 strict reps, and then after that I can’t quite contract them together at the top. I might be able to continue to pull for 5-6 more reps, but I am not getting those lower traps because I can’t complete that part of the ROM. Also, my biceps and forearms may run out of endurance.
In that case, isn’t it better to cluster strict reps with short breaks (45 seconds?)
One are that this has worked for me is calves. I can take a 12-15 rep max on either seated or standing calf raises, but instead, do 5 reps extra strict, rest 30 seconds, do 5 more, repeat for 60 reps.
I am not trying to overcomplicate things, but for gosh sakes, there are some exercises where I think you have to do some strict reps, break for a few, and then do some more.
[quote]Goodfellow wrote:
This guy uses straight sets:
http://www.T-Nation.com/free_online_forum/pictures_pics_photo_body_rate_image_performance/19_60_230lbs
[/quote]
I think Dylanj is a prime example of what CC was talking about with guys who have the genetics to use straight sets. Also, he recently talked about his training being stagnant in that thread. Maybe he should switch to a ramping style of training?
[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
go have a look at ironaddicts.com
[/quote]
CC I really like reading all your saying but isn’t IronAddict and most mod’s on that site in favor of straight sets? I’ve talked to most of them and seen most of the routines written out and it’s almost always straight sets
(by the way are you a member there? If you are is it the same name?)
-also feel free to just PM me this if you don’t want to throw it in the thread but you plan on competing sometime right? 5’9 at 280+lb. is HUGE and with a reasonable body fat too, I would think your probably the biggest member on this forum.
[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
If you want, pm me your training stats and I’ll introduce you to a few different routines/approaches and we’ll see how you respond to them…
[/quote]
I think I might have said this before but honestly man you’ve got to be one of the most helpful members I’ve seen on any forum, willing to go out of your way to personally help other members with different approaches…for free lol