T Nation

PWO Nutrition with Obese Trainees?

I have one, really simple question.

We all know (or should know) that after training (and even before & during) to optimise muscle gains we should take a protein and carb drink.

However, with clients who need to lose a lot of weight, are they better off having the post-workout drink straight away or fasting for a few hours to leave their body in a catabolic state and thus burning more stored energy?

I just read an article that studied this very subject. It’s conclusion was an after exercise drink/meal/some caloric intake, actually increased caloric consumption. It lowered cortisol production and kept the body out of catabolism.

The key is then total caloric consumption and obviously accounting for those calories in the daily plan.

I’m playing around with something related to this topic now: double the Surge (full serving before and during weight training, another full serving after training) for the FFB or Former Fat Boy:

http://www.T-Nation.com/readTopic.do?id=1349949

Great results so far, no fat gain. The peri-workout period is powerful enough to “put to work” workout drinks, even for those who don’t handle carbs well.

I’d say this was true for the obese person too if they’re weight training hard enough to “earn” the drink. Total daily calories taken into account of course. I wouldn’t do a double serving for this population though.

If this is worrisome at all or if the obese client isn’t quite earning the drink yet, I’d still jack them full of Biotest BCAA tablets (no calories) before and after training, or straight Premium Whey.

[quote]Sxio wrote:

However, with clients who need to lose a lot of weight, are they better off having the post-workout drink straight away or fasting for a few hours to leave their body in a catabolic state and thus burning more stored energy?[/quote]

No one who’s trying to change their physique/health should ever be protein fasted. In a Caloric deficit this can be bad news.

I’d keep the carbs waaay down, but a solid protein-containing meal or casein an hour before training will do wonders (and help to prevent the individual from becoming less healthy due to protein starvation).

Shit even if they can’t train hard enough to warrant Surge or carbs PWO then some BCAA and a whey blend after training should help. Most ive seen are low-no carb and basically just protein. I just use BCAA when trying to lean up, or doing just mobility/skipping/training others.

But if they really bust their ass then they might as well get a treat. This will likely work in the pavlovian dog sense as well in that they will associate the taste of carbs with the PWO window and this will motivate them to train in order to have treats.

It worked for one of the women I train and now she doesn’t go away from P+F meals unless she just trained. This keeps her training like no bodies business. Loses tons of fat (bodyweight and DB circuit, meltdownLite if you will) and learns to love training.

Then again I never gave her the option to cheat or hit up the carbs without training first. So the idea of eating carbs without training is almost haunting to her now.

But adherence is the key. I find women to be better at following rules for whatever reason. Good luck.

-chris

Thanks for the responses guys. Now that just leaves me with the time honoured problem of ‘rewarding’ clients by encouraging them to buy products.

But that’s my problem. You’d be amazed at how many people say they want to change their physique, but draw the line at supplements, or even changing their diet. As a fat old lady said to me the other day “I’m not giving up my corn flakes for anybody!”. I said “even for yourself?” and she got really quiet.

check out the lo carb round table part two

[quote]Sxio wrote:
Thanks for the responses guys. Now that just leaves me with the time honoured problem of ‘rewarding’ clients by encouraging them to buy products.

But that’s my problem. You’d be amazed at how many people say they want to change their physique, but draw the line at supplements, or even changing their diet. As a fat old lady said to me the other day “I’m not giving up my corn flakes for anybody!”. I said “even for yourself?” and she got really quiet. [/quote]

Some fuking people eh?

“I want to change!”

“Ok then lets do this and this, ok?”

“But I don’t want to change anything!”

“But… you just said…”

Everyone in this goddamn continent wants something for nothing and it makes me want to stab people. fuk.

I have a trainee that wants to gain weight but doesn’t want to do squats or log his food. So im like:

“what do you want to do then?”

“more bench press and arm work. And I don’t like packing lunch.”

What the fuk do i say to that. no matter how much i tell him squats will help him gain mass over his whole body and that he needs more real food that isn’t “a ham sandwich” or “cupcake” he doesn’t believe me. This is what happens when you have discounts for students.

Thank god for the few trainees that do exactly as I say. Damn they make progress, who’d have thought? I had a kid, he drank the milk, did the squats and learned to cook eggs and eat oat meal. His ass had stretch marks he grew so fast. still gaining too, right out of puberty. His mom asked him if he “on that creatine steroid” and we both laughed. and then I made him do more split squats.

-chris

Whey Isolate with glycine and glutamine

I totally hear ya on this one. I have an obese client and after I train him he’s like “ahh, now im gonna get me one of them shakes”, and I know it is good but part of me just wants to starve the fucker, since he def isnt eating the way he should be at home…

[quote]David Barr wrote:
I’d keep the carbs waaay down, but a solid protein-containing meal or casein an hour before training will do wonders (and help to prevent the individual from becoming less healthy due to protein starvation).[/quote]

Sounds right to me.

-Dan

[quote]realpeanutbutter wrote:
Sxio wrote:
Thanks for the responses guys. Now that just leaves me with the time honoured problem of ‘rewarding’ clients by encouraging them to buy products.

But that’s my problem. You’d be amazed at how many people say they want to change their physique, but draw the line at supplements, or even changing their diet. As a fat old lady said to me the other day “I’m not giving up my corn flakes for anybody!”. I said “even for yourself?” and she got really quiet.

Some fuking people eh?

“I want to change!”

“Ok then lets do this and this, ok?”

“But I don’t want to change anything!”

“But… you just said…”

Everyone in this goddamn continent wants something for nothing and it makes me want to stab people. fuk.

I have a trainee that wants to gain weight but doesn’t want to do squats or log his food. So im like:

“what do you want to do then?”

“more bench press and arm work. And I don’t like packing lunch.”

What the fuk do i say to that. no matter how much i tell him squats will help him gain mass over his whole body and that he needs more real food that isn’t “a ham sandwich” or “cupcake” he doesn’t believe me. This is what happens when you have discounts for students.

Thank god for the few trainees that do exactly as I say. Damn they make progress, who’d have thought? I had a kid, he drank the milk, did the squats and learned to cook eggs and eat oat meal. His ass had stretch marks he grew so fast. still gaining too, right out of puberty. His mom asked him if he “on that creatine steroid” and we both laughed. and then I made him do more split squats.

-chris

[/quote]

This is one of the most ACCURATE and HILARIOUS posts I have ever seen on any forum!! This is EXACTLY what I go through (what we all go through) when training clients!

LMAO!!! Thanks Chris…

TopSirloin

[quote]BGB wrote:
Whey Isolate with glycine and glutamine[/quote]

I like the whey isolate idea - why the extra glycine (already in the whey) and glutamine?

TS

[quote]David Barr wrote:

No one who’s trying to change their physique/health should ever be protein fasted. In a Caloric deficit this can be bad news.

I’d keep the carbs waaay down, but a solid protein-containing meal or casein an hour before training will do wonders (and help to prevent the individual from becoming less healthy due to protein starvation).[/quote]

I dont want to steal the thread but I have a question.

First off some info.I weigh 252 LB’s and I would be considered Obese. However I’ve cleaned up my eating habits considerably, and the only scource of carbs I eat now come from fruits and vegetables. I also lift consistantly, and have made some progress.

My normal PWO nutrition has been a bannana and a protein shake, 2 scoops with a glass of milk. 100% whey.

My question is, I have run out of protein, so what should I do. I work offshore and can’t really just walk in the kitchen and make a steak or go to the store and buy more protein, however I do have acess to boiled eggs 24/7. Should I cram a few of them down my throat.

I also dont eat very much meat, it is not cooked to taste out here, and really have no control over what I eat. Though every meal does have some kind of un-fried meat and vegetables.

For Supplements I am taking Fish Oil Caps 2 with every meal, and HOT-ROX

I made a decision to not be fat anymore 2 months ago. I was 315, I am down to 290 this morning and I have been taking 25g carbs with protein peri and 50g carbs with protein post-workout. It definitely gives me a better workout and does not seem to be affecting my weightloss. However, I train very hard, so this may not apply to your average fatass.

[quote]sigvarth wrote:
… However, I train very hard, so this may not apply to your average fatass. [/quote]

Classic Post!

Congrats on the progress!
And thanks for the input.

I know some FFB’s (me included) can get downright ‘carb-a-phobic’

Real good info to have
-congrats again and thanks

peace

[quote]TopSirloin wrote:
realpeanutbutter wrote:
Sxio wrote:
Thanks for the responses guys. Now that just leaves me with the time honoured problem of ‘rewarding’ clients by encouraging them to buy products.

But that’s my problem. You’d be amazed at how many people say they want to change their physique, but draw the line at supplements, or even changing their diet. As a fat old lady said to me the other day “I’m not giving up my corn flakes for anybody!”. I said “even for yourself?” and she got really quiet.

Some fuking people eh?

“I want to change!”

“Ok then lets do this and this, ok?”

“But I don’t want to change anything!”

“But… you just said…”

Everyone in this goddamn continent wants something for nothing and it makes me want to stab people. fuk.

I have a trainee that wants to gain weight but doesn’t want to do squats or log his food. So im like:

“what do you want to do then?”

“more bench press and arm work. And I don’t like packing lunch.”

What the fuk do i say to that. no matter how much i tell him squats will help him gain mass over his whole body and that he needs more real food that isn’t “a ham sandwich” or “cupcake” he doesn’t believe me. This is what happens when you have discounts for students.

Thank god for the few trainees that do exactly as I say. Damn they make progress, who’d have thought? I had a kid, he drank the milk, did the squats and learned to cook eggs and eat oat meal. His ass had stretch marks he grew so fast. still gaining too, right out of puberty. His mom asked him if he “on that creatine steroid” and we both laughed. and then I made him do more split squats.

-chris

This is one of the most ACCURATE and HILARIOUS posts I have ever seen on any forum!! This is EXACTLY what I go through (what we all go through) when training clients!

LMAO!!! Thanks Chris…

TopSirloin[/quote]

best trainees are female divorce’s who just got seperated. These girls work hard and do whatever i say. And they’ve usually got some cash. Angry, rich women with poor self image make the most progress in the gym. I’ve seen these girls make it through some sick workouts.

I couldn’t get this one pussy boy college kid to finish a metabolic session (bit of a butter guts) twice in a row. he’d sit down and be like:

“whew, Im gonna rest for a sec (couple minutes).”

as if he wasn’t paying for it? So I brought him in with two of these ladies for a group (people love group discount) session and he finally made it through, not wanting to be beaten handily by these women. Albeit they were still standing and tlaking at the end of it and he was on the floor or up against the wall until me and ‘the girls’ were done our yoga/stretching/mobitlity/whatever you want to call it.

fukin kids.

-chris

[quote]realpeanutbutter wrote:
best trainees are female divorce’s who just got seperated. These girls work hard and do whatever i say. And they’ve usually got some cash. Angry, rich women with poor self image make the most progress in the gym. I’ve seen these girls make it through some sick workouts.

I couldn’t get this one pussy boy college kid to finish a metabolic session (bit of a butter guts) twice in a row. he’d sit down and be like:

“whew, Im gonna rest for a sec (couple minutes).”

as if he wasn’t paying for it? So I brought him in with two of these ladies for a group (people love group discount) session and he finally made it through, not wanting to be beaten handily by these women. Albeit they were still standing and tlaking at the end of it and he was on the floor or up against the wall until me and ‘the girls’ were done our yoga/stretching/mobitlity/whatever you want to call it.

fukin kids.

-chris[/quote]

Nice.

Yeah, my biggest market is 36-40 year old women, mostly married though (both themselves and hubbies want to get the baby-rearing flab off). Interestingly, most are MYLF’s, which shows they care about their body more than “regular” mom’s or they “married-up”. Isn’t it amazing how these women listen like a circus trained elephant! My hardest working client (out of 40 right now) is a 58 yr old woman who looks 45!

I have the most difficulty with men and their ego getting in the way. In my experience, college-kids, unless a serious athlete, should not waste my time or their money. They should just read, eat, lift, and read some more. Their schedule, stress, and nutrition vary far too much to stay consistent enough for decent gains. Although I’m sure there are exceptions to this rule.

I have to rant that my LEAST favorite part of training is hearing clients bitch (women mostly) that they aren’t getting to their goals, yet I’ve asked them a dozen+ times, WTF haven’t you turned in a food log in a couple months?! Don’t complain and then not track and turn-in your log. I can’t fix what I don’t know is broken!!

Sorry one more… how about women who’s body fat had plummeted, circumference down several inches, down two sizes, and yet they are STILL bent out of shape when the scale has only budged a couple pounds! WTF! I don’t know how many gawd-dang times I’ve explained this phenom…

Back on topic though, unless an obese client get’s hypoglycemic easily, I just stick to whey + BCAA’s, no carbs. I allow them a small piece of fruit pre/post workout (within 30 min each way) which is more than enough carbs. The leaner the client, the more carbs should be in their PWO shake; likewise, the fatter, the fewer.

Later,

TopSirloin

[quote]SwampThing wrote:
David Barr wrote:

No one who’s trying to change their physique/health should ever be protein fasted. In a Caloric deficit this can be bad news.

I’d keep the carbs waaay down, but a solid protein-containing meal or casein an hour before training will do wonders (and help to prevent the individual from becoming less healthy due to protein starvation).

I dont want to steal the thread but I have a question.

First off some info.I weigh 252 LB’s and I would be considered Obese. However I’ve cleaned up my eating habits considerably, and the only scource of carbs I eat now come from fruits and vegetables. I also lift consistantly, and have made some progress.

My normal PWO nutrition has been a bannana and a protein shake, 2 scoops with a glass of milk. 100% whey.

My question is, I have run out of protein, so what should I do. I work offshore and can’t really just walk in the kitchen and make a steak or go to the store and buy more protein, however I do have acess to boiled eggs 24/7. Should I cram a few of them down my throat.

I also dont eat very much meat, it is not cooked to taste out here, and really have no control over what I eat. Though every meal does have some kind of un-fried meat and vegetables.

For Supplements I am taking Fish Oil Caps 2 with every meal, and HOT-ROX[/quote]

If you still have access to milk and you are obviously not lactose intolerant, then the milk + banana would suffice for sure. Personally, I could not handle that meal pre-workout (the casein in the milk is too slow to leave the stomach), but try a small pre-WO snack of it and see if it works for you. Milk is 20% whey which has some BCAA’s, plus the lactose sugar for recovery - and of course the banana is 25-35 grams of fructose/glucose and some a couple starches. Milk also tends to be insulinogenic even though it’s not high-GI, so that is a big help.

Whole egg are just about the best protein source, period. I would caution you eat more than 4-6, 5 days a week, due to a possible egg allergy issue. I used to eat 8-10/day, everyday, and developed an allergy (indigestion and gas). Backed them down and was fine.

TS