Putting On As Much Muscle As Possible

[quote]Dan7 wrote:
Joe Joseph wrote:
I personally, when natural, and going high volume tend to use:

(no specialization)
Back (not traps or rear delt): 12-15
Thighs: 12-15
Chest: 12
Delts(inc. rear): 12
Traps: 8-9
Biceps:8-10
Triceps: 8-10
Calves: 6-9
Forearm: 6-9

is that it? i think so… you get the idea.

Balance that is.

Swinging from 20 right down to 9 is not balance IMO.

This is just me, what i respond to… if i am “on” i may go upto 18-20 sets down to 6-8…
But it is a good guide…

Joe

do you feel your thighs and calves are a strong point? Mine are like sticks right now… And could I add the forearm sets to the calve sets? lol

[/quote]

Mine were for a very long time. Do yo want to know what works - truly, no BS?

As soon as i began to construct workouts for the upper leg (lower leg i always been gifted) that i enjoyed, that was it - my volume went up as did the frequency. So training 9-12 sets for legs 2-3 x a week or 15-20 sets nce a week, with 3 types of squats one after another… power, smith close, front… all atg and with weights ranging from 1 to 20.
I Like being mentally challenged as much as physically… (did that come out wrong? I am NOT mentally challenged…) so once i put in movements i had to re-learn, and one’s i could break PR’s on… that was me sorted. I looked forward to those workouts.

Tha worked for me, i must have put 2 inches on my legs in the past year with that. I believe the most of the last 20lbs has been towards my thighs, and i am loving the balance.

Joe

Yea my thighs started to grow quite quick too when I was doing high volume but i only got like .5" inch growth before my accident, sooo…

But yea i think i got leg days covered, no activity doesnt do wonders for your posture though and i know that can cause injuries so just gotta work to fix that I guess…

[quote]Dan7 wrote:
Yea my thighs started to grow quite quick too when I was doing high volume but i only got like .5" inch growth before my accident, sooo…

But yea i think i got leg days covered, no activity doesnt do wonders for your posture though and i know that can cause injuries so just gotta work to fix that I guess…[/quote]

Just focus on form and don’t do heavy weights until it is PERFECT. I been doing this recently and a shoulder problem that I have is gradually getting better.

[quote]Dan7 wrote:
Ok guys, I have taken in all the advice you have gave me.

I am sorry to keep posting routines! But here are the last two I have narrowed it down to, which one would be best - considering i have some imbalances I need to iron out.

SET TOTALS FOR BOTH THE ROUTINES (they are the exact same)
Back - 16
Quadriceps - 12
Hamstrings - 12
Chest - 12
Delts - 12
Biceps - 9
Triceps - 9
Traps - 6
Calves - 10
total 98 sets per week

ROUTINE 1 - bodypart 2x week, training 5x week

  1. LEGS
    Deadlift 5x5
    Hack squat 4x12
    Lying leg curl 3x12
    Standing calf raise 5x10

  2. UPPER BODY
    Bent over barbell row 5x8
    HS decline press 5x8
    Military press 4x8
    BB curl 3x8
    EZ skullcrushers 3x8

  3. rest

  4. BACK/SHOULDERS
    Lat pulldown 4x12
    T- bar row 4x12
    Straight-arm pulldown 3x15
    Neutral grip seated DB press 3x12
    Rear delt flyes 3x12
    One-arm cable lateral raise 2x15
    Haney shrugs - 3x12

  5. LEGS
    Back squat 5x8
    Barbell lunge 4x10
    Leg press 3x15
    Seated calf raise 5x15

  6. CHEST/ARMS
    Hammer strength flat bench press 4x12
    Pec deck 3x15
    Decline DB triceps extension 3x12
    Triceps pushdown 3x15
    Standing dumbbell curl 3x12
    DB preacher curl 3x15
    Barbell shrugs 3x12

  7. rest.


ROUTINE 2 - bodypart 1x week, training 5x week

  1. Legs
    deadlift - 5x5
    hack squat - 4x12
    lying leg curl - 3x12
    standing calf raise - 5x10

  2. rest

  3. Back / Rear delt
    Bent over barbell row - 5x8
    Lat pulldown - 4x12
    T-bar row - 4x12
    Straight-arm pulldown - 3x15
    Rear delt flyes - 3x12

  4. Front & Anterior delt / Triceps
    Military press - 4x8
    Neutral grip seated DB press - 3x12
    One-arm cable lateral raise - 2x15
    E-Z bar skullcrushers - 3x8
    Decline DB triceps extension - 3x12
    Triceps pushdown - 3x15

  5. Legs
    Back squat 5x8
    Barbell lunge 4x10
    Leg press 3x15
    Seated calf raise 5x15

  6. Rest

  7. Chest / Biceps
    Hammer strength decline press - 5x8
    Hammer strength incline press - 4x12
    Pec deck - 3x15
    Barbell bicep curl - 3x8
    Standing dumbbell curl - 3x12
    DB preacher curl - 3x15


Ok so those are the two routines I can’t decide between. Again, I’m sorry for posting routines all the time (i editted some above posts to remove them and clear up the thread), I greatly appreciate everyones help so far.[/quote]

I think both of those look pretty good. The real difference (to me at least) is doing legs 2x per week vs one. As Joe has noted, leg frequency and volume can be very personal, and it isn’t a one size fits all bodypart like some others may be. Rep ranges from 4-30 can be beneficial it seems.

Some thoughts:

  1. On both leg days it looks like hammies may not be getting balanced treatment. SL deads, standing curls or high position leg presses may help in that regard.

  2. On chest- I’m not anti-machine, but it seems like only doing HS machines for chest is not ideal. IF you have imbalances, I think lowering the weight and becoming proficient at dumbbell presses is a very good idea-- you engage lots of stabilizer muscles that you will need to be developed if you are going to get anywhere.

  3. I might make routine 2 a 2 on, 1 off, 3 on (or 3 on, 1 off, 2 on) rather than lifting 4 days in a row. You also have only 2 days of rest between your last leg workout of the week and first workout of the following week. Again, if you can do it, go for it-- but if your intensity is there the muscles should probably not be done repairing (growing) at that point.

Oh, and you can keep posting routines and we will do our best to respond, but you have to keep us posted on your progress in return!

well I just did the upper body day and at the end I was getting bad shoulder pains in the posterior area and when I was walking to my car it felt like my arms were pulling out of their sockets.

Today my left shoulder is OK but my right one throbs in the posterior area…

Just got over one problem and it looks like I have another <=*(

Fuck! I’m so fed up!

[quote]Dan7 wrote:
well I just did the upper body day and at the end I was getting bad shoulder pains in the posterior area and when I was walking to my car it felt like my arms were pulling out of their sockets.

Today my left shoulder is OK but my right one throbs in the posterior area…

Just got over one problem and it looks like I have another <=*(

Fuck! I’m so fed up! [/quote]

My assumption would be that it was the presses that did it? OR, did you feel it on the rows?

[quote]trextacy wrote:
Dan7 wrote:
well I just did the upper body day and at the end I was getting bad shoulder pains in the posterior area and when I was walking to my car it felt like my arms were pulling out of their sockets.

Today my left shoulder is OK but my right one throbs in the posterior area…

Just got over one problem and it looks like I have another <=*(

Fuck! I’m so fed up!

My assumption would be that it was the presses that did it? OR, did you feel it on the rows?[/quote]

Bent over barbell rows are OK, lat pulldowns hurt and so did the presses. I think the lat pulldowns started the pain and the presses made it a lot worse.

I think it was the start of an underlying problem, my shoulders have always felt a bit uncomfortable but there wasn’t pain so i didn’t look into it.

I did bent over barbell rows 4x12 (felt ok)
lat pulldown 4x10 (hurt)
seated chest press 3x10 (hurt)
dumbbell bench press 1x15 (hurt a bit less than seated chest press)
stopped training

Dude- I’m sorry. Well, I am not a doctor and don’t know what’s wrong. Obviously, if something hurts you don’t want to take chances with it.

My best advice is lay off the exercises that bother you, work on those you can do and see a doctor. That may leave you doing arms, deadlifts, squats, calves, abs exclusively for a while…which may not be a bad program for a few months.

[quote]Dan7 wrote:
trextacy wrote:
Dan7 wrote:
well I just did the upper body day and at the end I was getting bad shoulder pains in the posterior area and when I was walking to my car it felt like my arms were pulling out of their sockets.

Today my left shoulder is OK but my right one throbs in the posterior area…

Just got over one problem and it looks like I have another <=*(

Fuck! I’m so fed up!

My assumption would be that it was the presses that did it? OR, did you feel it on the rows?

Bent over barbell rows are OK, lat pulldowns hurt and so did the presses. I think the lat pulldowns started the pain and the presses made it a lot worse.

I think it was the start of an underlying problem, my shoulders have always felt a bit uncomfortable but there wasn’t pain so i didn’t look into it.

I did bent over barbell rows 4x12 (felt ok)
lat pulldown 4x10 (hurt)
seated chest press 3x10 (hurt)
dumbbell bench press 1x15 (hurt a bit less than seated chest press)
stopped training[/quote]

EXACT** EXACT** same fucking problem.

Your shoulders always feeling a bit uncomfortable - do you carry a bag on one shoulder by any chance?

I’ve done the push/pull when re-starting after a few months off…

With proper nutrition, I gained 15 lbs in 1 1/2 months! I’d never experienced anything like it before! People were noticing the incredible gains in my chest and arms and my bodyfat seemed to stay about the same or even drop. My strength went up enormously.

I was doing push/pull (two days of each per week) until yesterday where I did the intermediate V-Diet workout. When I come back to higher volume, I’ll probably go to an upper/lower split.

[quote]Goodfellow wrote:
Dan7 wrote:
trextacy wrote:
Dan7 wrote:
well I just did the upper body day and at the end I was getting bad shoulder pains in the posterior area and when I was walking to my car it felt like my arms were pulling out of their sockets.

Today my left shoulder is OK but my right one throbs in the posterior area…

Just got over one problem and it looks like I have another <=*(

Fuck! I’m so fed up!

My assumption would be that it was the presses that did it? OR, did you feel it on the rows?

Bent over barbell rows are OK, lat pulldowns hurt and so did the presses. I think the lat pulldowns started the pain and the presses made it a lot worse.

I think it was the start of an underlying problem, my shoulders have always felt a bit uncomfortable but there wasn’t pain so i didn’t look into it.

I did bent over barbell rows 4x12 (felt ok)
lat pulldown 4x10 (hurt)
seated chest press 3x10 (hurt)
dumbbell bench press 1x15 (hurt a bit less than seated chest press)
stopped training

EXACT** EXACT** same fucking problem.

Your shoulders always feeling a bit uncomfortable - do you carry a bag on one shoulder by any chance?[/quote]

Yea I usually carry a pull-cord nike bag to college over one side and I carry a big gym bag to my work which is quite heavy. Why did this cause you a problem?

[quote]Dan7 wrote:
Goodfellow wrote:
Dan7 wrote:
trextacy wrote:
Dan7 wrote:
well I just did the upper body day and at the end I was getting bad shoulder pains in the posterior area and when I was walking to my car it felt like my arms were pulling out of their sockets.

Today my left shoulder is OK but my right one throbs in the posterior area…

Just got over one problem and it looks like I have another <=*(

Fuck! I’m so fed up!

My assumption would be that it was the presses that did it? OR, did you feel it on the rows?

Bent over barbell rows are OK, lat pulldowns hurt and so did the presses. I think the lat pulldowns started the pain and the presses made it a lot worse.

I think it was the start of an underlying problem, my shoulders have always felt a bit uncomfortable but there wasn’t pain so i didn’t look into it.

I did bent over barbell rows 4x12 (felt ok)
lat pulldown 4x10 (hurt)
seated chest press 3x10 (hurt)
dumbbell bench press 1x15 (hurt a bit less than seated chest press)
stopped training

EXACT** EXACT** same fucking problem.

Your shoulders always feeling a bit uncomfortable - do you carry a bag on one shoulder by any chance?

Yea I usually carry a pull-cord nike bag to college over one side and I carry a big gym bag to my work which is quite heavy. Why did this cause you a problem?[/quote]

Do this:

A. read all of the following articles:

Cracking the Rotator Cuff Conundrum (don’t do the program)
http://www.T-Nation.com/readArticle.do?id=459577

Shoulder Savers: Part I
http://www.T-Nation.com/readArticle.do?id=1053531

Shoulder Savers: Part II
http://www.T-Nation.com/readArticle.do?id=1055409

Shoulder Savers: Part III
http://www.T-Nation.com/readArticle.do?id=1153915

Push-ups, Face Pulls, and Shrugs
http://www.T-Nation.com/readArticle.do?id=1426252

Everything push-ups
http://www.T-Nation.com/article/bodybuilding/everything_pushups&cr=

It Looked Good on Paper (scroll down to ‘external rotations dont fix everything’)
http://www.T-Nation.com/readArticle.do?id=1866676

B. Rules for the next two weeks:

  • No back squats, front squats or any exercise that puts a bar on your upper back.

  • Stop benching

  • Lots of bent over barbell rows and bent over dumbbell rows (do not cheat!)

  • Lots of seated rows (pay attention to the technique in “Shoulder Savers Part I” - if you have trouble contracting your back evenly, do light weight and hundreds of reps until it feels right, then go from there)

  • Lots of prone cobras and prone trap raises

  • No overhead pressing or lateral raises.

  • Do lots of one-arm band rowing at home, 5 sets of 30+ 4-5 times a day (attach band to door knob)

  • Do lots of band external rotations at home, 4 sets of 20+ 3-4 times a day (attach band to door knob)

  • Do ‘dowel rod push-ups’ at home (follow the progressions on ‘everything push-ups’ and try to go at it 3 times a day)

  • Gentle stretches for the pecs, lats, anterior delts, upper traps, and levator scapulae

  • Read “Feel Better for $10”
    http://www.T-Nation.com/readArticle.do?id=475832
    use a foam roller on your lats, pecs, rhomboids, and thoracic spine.

  • Read “Soft Tissue Work for Tough Guys”
    http://www.T-Nation.com/readArticle.do?id=1259323
    use a tennis on your posterior shoulder girdle.

  • Train upper body 2x a week

YOUR UPPER BODY SESSIONS SHOULD LOOK LIKE THIS:
Warm up - For both sessions.
Foam rolling:
Latissimus dorsi
Pectoralis major & minor
Rhomboids
Thoracic spine

Tennis balling:
Posterior shoulder girdle

10 mins on treadmill
Scap push ups 1x15
Upper trap stretch 15s/side
Levator scapulae stretch 15s/side

Work out
A) Bent over barbell row OR Bent over dumbbell row
Sets/Reps: 5 x 12
Rest: 90 sec

B) Seated row, Neutral grip OR Seated row, medium, pronated grip
Sets/Reps: 2 x 100 (to focus on form) OR 5 x 12 (once form is perfect)
Rest: 90 sec

C1) Face pulls
Sets/Reps: 4 x 12
Rest: none

C2) Arm shuffle OR Hand walks (noted in everything push-ups)
Sets/Reps: 4 x 30 shuffles / 30 walks (once both hands get back onto the step that is ONE REP)
Rest: 1 min

D) T-Push ups OR Swiss-ball push ups(only perform these once you have completed the ‘dowel rod’ task in everything push-ups)
Sets/Reps: 3 x 20
Rest: 45 sec

E) Triceps pushdown OR Triceps pushdown with rope
Sets/Reps: 3 x 10
Rest: 1 min

F) Standing dumbbell curl (strict form) OR Standing hammer curl
Sets/Reps: 3 x 10
Rest: 1 min

G) Prone cobra’s on both days
Sets/Reps: 2 set, max hold - aim for a hold of 5+ mins.
Rest: 1 min

H) Prone trap raises on both days
Sets/Reps: 4 x 20
Rest: 45 sec

I) Behind the neck band pulldowns OR Scap push ups
Sets/Reps: 3 x 20
Rest: 30 sec.

  • Don’t do anything that hurts

  • Do deadlifts on your lower body days, do not go under 10 reps. Keep lower body days basic and try to limit your upper body involvement.

Do all this for 2-3 weeks and your shoulders should start feeling better. I got most of this advice from Eric Cressey in an email so it’d be wise to listen.

[quote]wirewound wrote:
I’ve done the push/pull when re-starting after a few months off…

With proper nutrition, I gained 15 lbs in 1 1/2 months! I’d never experienced anything like it before! People were noticing the incredible gains in my chest and arms and my bodyfat seemed to stay about the same or even drop. My strength went up enormously.

I was doing push/pull (two days of each per week) until yesterday where I did the intermediate V-Diet workout. When I come back to higher volume, I’ll probably go to an upper/lower split.[/quote]

can you post here or pm me what the routine was like?

[quote]Goodfellow wrote:
Dan7 wrote:
Goodfellow wrote:
Dan7 wrote:
trextacy wrote:
Dan7 wrote:
well I just did the upper body day and at the end I was getting bad shoulder pains in the posterior area and when I was walking to my car it felt like my arms were pulling out of their sockets.

Today my left shoulder is OK but my right one throbs in the posterior area…

Just got over one problem and it looks like I have another <=*(

Fuck! I’m so fed up!

My assumption would be that it was the presses that did it? OR, did you feel it on the rows?

Bent over barbell rows are OK, lat pulldowns hurt and so did the presses. I think the lat pulldowns started the pain and the presses made it a lot worse.

I think it was the start of an underlying problem, my shoulders have always felt a bit uncomfortable but there wasn’t pain so i didn’t look into it.

I did bent over barbell rows 4x12 (felt ok)
lat pulldown 4x10 (hurt)
seated chest press 3x10 (hurt)
dumbbell bench press 1x15 (hurt a bit less than seated chest press)
stopped training

EXACT** EXACT** same fucking problem.

Your shoulders always feeling a bit uncomfortable - do you carry a bag on one shoulder by any chance?

Yea I usually carry a pull-cord nike bag to college over one side and I carry a big gym bag to my work which is quite heavy. Why did this cause you a problem?

Do this:

A. read all of the following articles:

Cracking the Rotator Cuff Conundrum (don’t do the program)
http://www.T-Nation.com/readArticle.do?id=459577

Shoulder Savers: Part I
http://www.T-Nation.com/readArticle.do?id=1053531

Shoulder Savers: Part II
http://www.T-Nation.com/readArticle.do?id=1055409

Shoulder Savers: Part III
http://www.T-Nation.com/readArticle.do?id=1153915

Push-ups, Face Pulls, and Shrugs
http://www.T-Nation.com/readArticle.do?id=1426252

Everything push-ups
http://www.T-Nation.com/article/bodybuilding/everything_pushups&cr=

It Looked Good on Paper (scroll down to ‘external rotations dont fix everything’)
http://www.T-Nation.com/readArticle.do?id=1866676

B. Rules for the next two weeks:

  • No back squats, front squats or any exercise that puts a bar on your upper back.

  • Stop benching

  • Lots of bent over barbell rows and bent over dumbbell rows (do not cheat!)

  • Lots of seated rows (pay attention to the technique in “Shoulder Savers Part I” - if you have trouble contracting your back evenly, do light weight and hundreds of reps until it feels right, then go from there)

  • Lots of prone cobras and prone trap raises

  • No overhead pressing or lateral raises.

  • Do lots of one-arm band rowing at home, 5 sets of 30+ 4-5 times a day (attach band to door knob)

  • Do lots of band external rotations at home, 4 sets of 20+ 3-4 times a day (attach band to door knob)

  • Do ‘dowel rod push-ups’ at home (follow the progressions on ‘everything push-ups’ and try to go at it 3 times a day)

  • Gentle stretches for the pecs, lats, anterior delts, upper traps, and levator scapulae

  • Read “Feel Better for $10”
    http://www.T-Nation.com/readArticle.do?id=475832
    use a foam roller on your lats, pecs, rhomboids, and thoracic spine.

  • Read “Soft Tissue Work for Tough Guys”
    http://www.T-Nation.com/readArticle.do?id=1259323
    use a tennis on your posterior shoulder girdle.

  • Train upper body 2x a week

YOUR UPPER BODY SESSIONS SHOULD LOOK LIKE THIS:
Warm up - For both sessions.
Foam rolling:
Latissimus dorsi
Pectoralis major & minor
Rhomboids
Thoracic spine

Tennis balling:
Posterior shoulder girdle

10 mins on treadmill
Scap push ups 1x15
Upper trap stretch 15s/side
Levator scapulae stretch 15s/side

Work out
A) Bent over barbell row OR Bent over dumbbell row
Sets/Reps: 5 x 12
Rest: 90 sec

B) Seated row, Neutral grip OR Seated row, medium, pronated grip
Sets/Reps: 2 x 100 (to focus on form) OR 5 x 12 (once form is perfect)
Rest: 90 sec

C1) Face pulls
Sets/Reps: 4 x 12
Rest: none

C2) Arm shuffle OR Hand walks (noted in everything push-ups)
Sets/Reps: 4 x 30 shuffles / 30 walks (once both hands get back onto the step that is ONE REP)
Rest: 1 min

D) T-Push ups OR Swiss-ball push ups(only perform these once you have completed the ‘dowel rod’ task in everything push-ups)
Sets/Reps: 3 x 20
Rest: 45 sec

E) Triceps pushdown OR Triceps pushdown with rope
Sets/Reps: 3 x 10
Rest: 1 min

F) Standing dumbbell curl (strict form) OR Standing hammer curl
Sets/Reps: 3 x 10
Rest: 1 min

G) Prone cobra’s on both days
Sets/Reps: 2 set, max hold - aim for a hold of 5+ mins.
Rest: 1 min

H) Prone trap raises on both days
Sets/Reps: 4 x 20
Rest: 45 sec

I) Behind the neck band pulldowns OR Scap push ups
Sets/Reps: 3 x 20
Rest: 30 sec.

  • Don’t do anything that hurts

  • Do deadlifts on your lower body days, do not go under 10 reps. Keep lower body days basic and try to limit your upper body involvement.

Do all this for 2-3 weeks and your shoulders should start feeling better. I got most of this advice from Eric Cressey in an email so it’d be wise to listen.

[/quote]

damn that is a lot of info to take in, how do you know it will work?

Just like to say thanks for all the help i’ve recieved so far.

My shoulder feels ok right now, and I got some bands and did some band pull aparts, behind neck band pulldowns and they feel quite good.

I also did some deadlifts today and worked up to a few reps with 225lb and they felt ok too.

Goodfellow I think i’ll take some of your advice, but i have tried foam rolling and stuff before and it just didn’t work for me… face pulls feel a bit awkward too.

I believe the key now for me is to fix my posture that has gone down the shitter since my injury, once that comes up to par i believe everything will be ok.

In the mean time I will be doing deadlifts 2x a week with leg presses and bodyweight squats to failure for lower body (aswell as calves)

and for upper body i reckon ill do something like goodfellow said with rows & arm work. I’ll keep up this stuff with the bands too because it feels good.