T Nation

Putting Ecdysterone To The Test

There have been a lot of heated comments the last few days over the supposed “bug steroid”. I believe that in nutrition and supplementation we have to let a healthy combination of solid, well-controlled research and good, detailed anecdotal reports dictate our recommendations. Neither alone will do.

I have a little solution to propose. How bout doing our own T-Mag forum research experiment?

Why dont you guys who like ecdysterone supplementation, who are interested in trying it, or who keep saying that “IT WORKS!” start suppying some numbers for us. I havent seen any stats. All I have seen is that you believe it helps you. Well, if you want to convince anyone of that here is what you can do…

  1. Tell us exactly what product you are using and exactly what it contains (Im not familiar with the products that are out there or with their claims - the only forum or bodybuilding web site I read or post on is this one).

  2. Record your body weight, body fat (or even just the individual skinfold readings for 7 sites or so - this is how I measure my changes in fat %), sets and reps, and food intake before the use of this supplement.

  3. Record the same parameters after a reasonable time on the supplement.

  4. Be sure not to change your training or nutrition too radically while on the program. This will invalidate any changes you see.

By doing this you can prove to yourselves and to us that the stuff works.

Now, a few rules for this experiment…take the stuff when your body weight has been stable for a while. You dont want to report results after coming off a cycle of real juice or after large gains or losses for obvious reasons. Also, take the stuff by itself. When taking more than one supplement at a time you cant be sure what is producing the results.

Anyone interested?

I’m up for this. In fact, it’s exactly what I did a year ago. I took the product Anabolica (5 alpha hyroxy laxogenin acetate) at 50mg/day, 25mg in the AM and 25 mg in the PM. I weighed 205lbs when I started with 11% bodyfat. After just 5 days, I noticed a drastic increase in recovery ability/stamina. At the end of the 4th week, I had put on an additional 4lbs of lbm and lost 3lb of body fat. The drop in my skinfolds came in my abdomen as I only take 3 sites and hold almost no fat in my chest/legs. I had this done at work through my fitness center so it wasn’t me taking them. All of my lifts were up (HIT routine 3X week) much more so than usual. In fact, my weight increases AND reps were both increasing simultaneously. The biggest piece of evidence for me though is this: I’m 31 now. In reviewing my journals from age 21 my recovery had suffered dramatically. I was deadlifting heavy 3X/week then and could only do so 1X/week prior to the use of this product. The dropoff really it me at age 26 and ecdy got me back to that and even better! That’s where it really shines for me. I know 3X/week DL’ing sounds wrong, but when you’re not sore, feel fresh and the weight jumps are skyrocketing workout to workout you just don’t care. I applaud your attempt to test ecdy. In 15 years and more than a few powerlifting competitiions I’ve never seen a legal product that can do this. I respect your opinion. I’m just hoping others will be pleasantly surprised like I was. I pissed away a lot of $ in my younger days before the internet. This is my way of getting even, I guess. Hope to hear from you soon…

I have already proved it to myself John,besides that all this post will get is smartass remarks. I got enough of that today.

This is a public forum where people like Bill, Brock, Cy, Chris, myself come to answer hundreds of questions for free for you and other readers. And we do this in our free time. For you to suggest that you’ve proven it to yourself and have no need to contribute to this forum is a slap in the face to all of us. Here is your chance to “put up or shut up”. To justify your thoughts and feelings with some objective evidence. But instead of actually making a contribution to someone else’s progress or knowledge, you avoid doing so and continue to use the forum to consume info but offer nothing. Nice!

Hey John–where are the numbers from your experiments with Surge? I’m making plenty of progress on grape juice and whey protein. Before you condemn one’s success with any supplement, look at your own hype. And remember, anyone can post fake numbers on the internet. I want to see results from a reputable, peer reviewed journal. Thanks…

Jas - quality research takes time. Even after the research is done it must be analyzed with many questions asked as to why ‘this’ went up or why ‘that’ went down. Then more studies must be done after that. Getting stuff published in journals takes time, perhaps even more then doing the study itself. Patience.

I’m a 45 yr old former 5’9" 150 pd. swimmer/tri-athlete who learned to dislike his body 6 yrs ago, quit, took up bodybuilding went from 150-175 in 3 1/2 yrs and plateaued at 175 for 2 yrs despite exhausting training methods and supplements.
I read a post by Randy Lane a few months ago about the merits of ecdy and fina.I did 6 weeks of ecdy and went from 175-183. I then did heavy dose fina and nandro for 5 weeks and went from 184-198! I then used ecdy again as a post cycle compound (no clomid) (with tribex)…lost 4 pds. in 3 days but then steadily climbed to 202 pounds within 2-3 weeks! Not bad for a post cycle performance!
My beta-ecdysterone
is the best supp. I’ve tried… hands down.
I discount the placebo argument cause I get a placebo effect from EVERY new product I try.

Jas, I just dont get you guys. I know this world is full of critics, but when I spend a good deal of my waking hours performing a free service to t-mag readers only to get slapped in the face repeatedly, I start to get a bit disillusioned. About the surge data, I posted a while back that the study was going along fine until I lost the original samples when our freezer died (it’s a minus 180 freezer so when it dies, you lose alot of data!). Now we are back in business.

For those who do care and dont just want to be smart asses, Im running a double blind placebo controlled crossover trial comparing 4 drinks. This means each subject gets all 4 drinks about a week apart. Once all the blood is collected then I spend the next month analyzing it. Then I spend a month doing stats and writing up the data for a journal. Then journals take between 6 months and 1 year to publish the data. So dont hold your breath for the Surge data. No matter how fast I get it out there, most of the delay is in the peer-reviewed journals. So needless to say it will be posted here first. Ive seen the preliminary data and it looks good. Subjects are raving about the stuff too.

BTW, Jas, Your insinuation that I would post phoney numbers is again a tremendous insult. Im a scientist and teacher in one of the top exercise biochemistry programs in canada. My mentor Dr Lemon is world reknowned for his great research and objective evaluation of data. You dont get to this level by being a scum bag with phoney numbers. But whatever, man. You just keep drinking your drink, and I will certainly keep drinking my drink.

Jas, out of all of the condescending remarks that have been made regarding Cy and John, yours has to be the most ignorant and inappropriate! I find it extremely laughable that you would question Surge while maintaining that grape juice combined with protein powder offers a comparable effect!

Furthermore, your half-witted insinuation that no research on Surge is being done is offensive and so enragingly erroneous that you’ve truly pissed me off!!! Why this is so, and how I know research is being done, is because I’ve puked twice, passed out nearly three times and have been poked with cathaders and 20 guage needles 30+ times while being a subject in the testing!

You are an illustration of the spolied ignoramus' that are providing green ungratefulness, causing detriment to the rest of us. It is because of you that there aren't other researchers or other forums that provide such info and time while catering to our questions and thoughts. So far, the T-mag staff has put up with your unappreciative, disrespectful manner but there is always a limit to how shit one can take thrown at them!

JB…I think it’s a great idea to have those who have experience with Ecdysterones–hell any supplement–post some results and the other criteria mentioned. That’s part of what this forum is all about. And I appreciate the fact that Mixelflick went in detail to describe his experiences and hope others with similar success will take the time to do the same. I find it rather appalling–and a low-down dirty shame–that anyone would direct such criticism to yourself or any other of the T-mag staff and writers. You guys provide a constant flux of info–and it’s FREE–to us…most of us just take it for granted and some are just ignorant. I know it’s hard to ignore something like that, and I wouldn’t expect you to, but I surely hope that you continue to participate on the forum and help out us T-bros who certainly find your insight an invaluable resource! Thanks, JB.

John, don’t worry about some of the goofballs in this forum. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and unfortunately that includes rude and ungrateful ones. Anyone that would question Mr. Berardi and think they know more than him regarding nutrition or supplementation is just wrong. Unless you have a Ph.D. in exercise physiology or tons of experience in a similar field don’t question an expert, and yes John is and expert. Don’t piss off an expert who is be gracious enough to take time (free time, he’s not getting anything for this) to answer your questions. I think the majority of readers would agree with me, and I apologize for the ungrateful ones John.

JB, where are you doing the study at? And is there anyway to get in on the ground floor in these studies? I’d be more than happy to toss my self into the ring for any studies you guys are interested in running

OK most of you know, I am pretty objective, except when it comes to lazy asses…then I bring out the 12 gague. I have never tried these bug roids, and honestly dont have any objective sway either way. Therefore, if one of the “Pro” bug roiders is willing to tell me which one to use, and the cheapest way to get it (I do have a family to think about) I would be more than happy to give this a go. T-mag staff, give me the parameters you want me to measure, and I would be very happy to give this a shot…and let you guys know either way how it turns out. For those posting that people will give false information…put it like this…I don’t care either way, and as any of you know who follow my posts…I dont BS, and have no reason to do it now…so to both the T-mag staff, and the “pro” bug roiders…would I be a fair and objective candidate for your little test?

strongly agrees with Timbo.

all this complaining about stupid shit is taking up all the room on this damn forum. Who gives a damn if ecdysterones work or not… if they work for you use em… if they dont then dont. Big cy went out of his way to show the research that theres no reason for it to work but if it does for you for some odd reason so be it… this shit is free anyways… just fuck it… thats my 2 cents

Mixelflick, thanks for your post. That is indeed an interesting finding that cant be dismissed. As is yours Tim M.

Brad, thanks for your comments but to be honest, my info IS NOT beyond question. Sure, I know a bunch about nutrition, training, and biochem, but gosh, I dont know everything. Im still learning and hope to always continue. So what Im trying to say is that I dont mind when people disagree with the objective findings I present...as long as they have some objective facts or support on their side! I dont tolerate comments like "I dont agree because I feel x, y, or z". This means to me that you have some emotional attachment to the issue in question and just spout out rather than bothering to examine it. Know what I mean?

Timbo, I like the use of the word "flux" in your post. Very nice...

BTW, Im doing my studies at the university of western ontario so unless you live in london ontario, you are out of luck. "bodyguard" lives here and his time commitment to this project has been awesome. (not to mention his constant provision of large amounts of blood).

As far as rules for the experiment…(or for your experimentation with any new supplement for that matter)

  1. Weight stable (+ or - 3-5 lbs) for at least a month or two; 2) Not coming off any anabolics or androgens (or any supplements for that matter); 3) Not on any other supplements at the time of the ecdysterones; 4) Are eating a constant diet (i.e. dont alter carb, fat or protein intake simultaneous with the supplement); 5) Follow a training program similar to what you have been doing so you wont make mad gains in strength due to the program (this could even be one you are getting “stale” on); 6) Record initial body weight, record skinfolds at abs, chest, suprailiac, subscapular, triceps, biceps, thigh, and calves, record all lifts in all exercises during week #1; 6) Repeat after 2 weeks of supplementation and then again after 4 weeks of supplementation. This will enable us to see if they increase weight, decrease fat, or increase strength.

How can you guys have such negative remarks about Mr. Berardi? I consider it a great honor for some of my questions to be answered by such top notch professionals. Ill tell ya right now that i take alot of whats said on here with a grain of salt unless its said by JMB,Bill Roberts, Cy, etc.

A few comments:

  1. I would also be interested in trying these bug hormones out. Would those who are familiar with them please list the most effective ones, as well as the company (ies) that supply them? I think randy lane said that there were three that were good (on another thread), but that all the others were basically crap. Could you repost that info (along with anything else relevant) under this thread?

  2. This whole idea (of having a “Forum test”) is great. Where else are you going to get a large number of people who know what they’re doing and have the time and interest in trying something like this out? While it’s not the same as a “real” peer-reviewed study, this could really be a good source of valuable info for everyone. It’s certainly light-years away from “Yeah, a friend of mine said this shit rocks!” for reliability. Who knows? In time, maybe supplement companies will print “Tested and approved by the T-Mag Gang!” as an endorsement.

  3. I do, however, think that randy lane has something of a point when he worries about getting smart-ass remarks from the staff. Lately it seems like some people (not to name any names) have been slamming some of the, shall we say, less sagacious posts. While I like a good retort as much as anyone, and relish seeing the ignorant put in their place, I think that if a T-Mag staffer posts something like this, it has more of a detrimental effect than is desirable. God knows you guys have displayed the patience of saints and give amazingly of your time, and I know it must be REALLY irritating to have to put up with dumb questions and comments. But still… Why don’t you let the rest of us handle the flaming for you? I can pretty much guarantee we’ll do you proud. (See Bodyguard’s comments!)

  4. In line with the above: Jas, what you posted has to be the most ridiculous, idiotic thing I’ve ever seen on this forum. Not to mention ungrateful. For Christ’s sake, if you don’t think this is going to be worthwhile, don’t read the thread. For that matter, if you don’t think JB is doing anything productive, don’t read his stuff, don’t use his products and don’t waste the rest of our time taking cheap shots at someone who’s already done more for bodybuilding than you could ever, ever possibly hope to accomplish.

Look, I am not taking personal shots at anyone. I just want to see the findings of any/all experiments. So far, it’s been word of mouth. Why I responded to this thread was that one man’s success with a particular supplement may not work for another. John B was trying to get people to objectively analyse their results with a supplement. Fine. But, don’t be critical until then. I don’t blindly follow an “expert’s” advice, especially if affiliated with any particular supplement company.

They are absolute shit, John.

End of discussion.