T Nation

Put on Shots, Advice?


#1

script:
testosterone cypionate (depo-testosterone) 200 mg/ml injection

inject .25 ml intramuscularly twice a week (Monday and Thursday)

Also got needles and think they gave me size wrong.

got 22 calibur 1 and A HALF in long needles

alot of stuff i'm reading 23 calibur comes up and I keep seeing ONE INCH needles.

the extra half inch is freaking me the hell out and the girth of the needle.

I'm probably going to message my doctor about it. (im pretty sure the pharmacy messed up though because even on the sheet it says 22c "1") still though the 22 cal is intimidating me.

Is this is pretty typical or no?
How common are infections if I am careful?


#2

Hello
You can use the 22G. to draw out the vial. I use 25G. to inject.. as for length ...I use 1 or 1.5 inch ... doesn't matter.. I'm very lean so 1 inch is really ok. If you carry a lot of fat then you want the injection deeper. Trust me 1 or 1.5 inch doesn't matter as far as pain is concerned. 22g. would be a little big to inject with in my opinion...


#3

You can inject IM or SC with #29 1/2" 0.5 ml [not 1.0ml] insulin needles.
Less muscle damage and less pain and freakout factor.
See the protocol for injections sticky.
In most US States and Canada you can get insulin needles without Rx. At Walmart, 100 for around $14 [in SU].


#4

Really will the oil get through the insulin needle? also heard that it's better to do IM then in the fat layer. although I realize your a pretty avid poster and seem to know your stuff so i'm not trying to criticize what you said I have just read mixed opinions on the subject. If I could do insulin shots that would be great.

Does pretty much everyone on TrT eventually get on aroma inhib?

I'm 24 will it be a problem for younger guys, should I just keep an eye on it or push for one? I have bloodwork (followup) in 3 months to check the levels. should I push for a month sooner maybe?


#5

Also got some tests back hopefully these are ok

CBC-Auto diff

WBC 3.70 - 11.00 k/uL 8.56
RBC 4.20 - 6.00 m/uL 5.10
Hemoglobin 13.0 - 17.0 g/dL 16.5
Hematocrit 39.0 - 51.0 % 48.1
MCV 80.0 - 100.0 fL 94.3
MCH 26.0 - 34.0 pG 32.4
MCHC 30.5 - 36.0 g/dL 34.3
RDW-CV 11.5 - 15.0 % 12.0
Platelet Count 150 - 400 k/uL 208
MPV 9.0 - 12.7 fL 10.8
Neut% 50.3
Abs Neut (ANC) 1.45 - 7.50 k/uL 4.31
Lymph% 41.0
Abs Lymph 1.00 - 4.00 k/uL 3.51
Mono% 6.4
Abs Mono 0.00 - 0.86 k/uL 0.55
Eosin% 1.8
Abs Eosin 0.00 - 0.45 k/uL 0.15
Baso% 0.5
Abs Baso 0.00 - 0.10 k/uL 0.04
Diff Type Auto Diff

COMP METABOLIC PANEl

Protein, Total 6.0 - 8.4 g/dL 7.6
Albumin 3.5 - 5.0 g/dL 5.0
Calcium 8.5 - 10.5 mg/dL 10.0
Bilirubin, Total 0.0 - 1.5 mg/dL 0.5
Alkaline Phosphatase 40 - 150 U/L 43
AST 7 - 40 U/L 22
Glucose 65 - 100 mg/dL 85
BUN 10 - 25 mg/dL 14
Creatinine 0.70 - 1.40 mg/dL 0.90
Sodium 135 - 146 mmol/L 143
Potassium 3.5 - 5.0 mmol/L 4.0
Chloride 98 - 110 mmol/L 100
CO2 23 - 32 mmol/L 23
Anion Gap 0 - 15 mmol/L 20 H
ALT 5 - 50 U/L 19

(my anion gap is high in this, hopefully that's not terrible, frankly I don't know what that means and will be doing a google search shorty, just wanted to get these posted asap)

TSH BLD
TSH 0.400 - 5.500 uU/mL 5.230 (seems high)

CORTISOL BLD (test taken a couple hours before bed)
Cortisol 1.3

ESTRADIOL-17B BLD
Estradiol 17B 0 - 60 pg/mL 23


#6

No, most guys on TRT don't need an aromatase inhibitor, especially not younger non-obese guys. Those who do use them could often avoid the need by reducing T injection dose and/or increasing frequency. Your injection frequency is good so just have the doctor keep an eye on your T and E levels and be willing to reduce T dose if they are elevated.


#7

You have hypothyroidism [TSH=5.23]. Should be near TSH=1.0
This can cause hypogonadism in some guys.
Did you stop using iodized salt?
- read the thyroid basics sticky and check your oral body temperatures as directed.

If you do not need anastrozole to keep near E2=22pg/ml, no problem.

What was LH/FSH before starting TRT? <<<< important

T in #29 is slow, live with it. [0.5ml NOT 1.0ml]
Many doing this for many years.

Read these stickies:
- advice for new guys <<< note the first paragraph
- things that damage your hormones
- protocol for injections
- finding a TRT doc

At your age, low-T is not the disease, its a symptom.

You need these labs:
TT
FT
E2
LH/FSH <<< should have been done before TRT
prolactin <<< very important
TSH
fT3
fT4
thyroid auto-immune panel

Please study those stickies, will take days.


#8

yes unfortunately LH/FSH was not done before. I'm still irritated about the first doctors blatant lack of knowledge of TrT then still prescribing stuff before all this bloodwork I'm reading that i'm supposed to do now...

7/22/2015 (was on trt gel if that makes a difference)
Prolactin 2.0 - 14.0 ng/mL 8.7

6/18/2015
TSH 0.400 - 5.500 uU/mL 2.390

my TSH REALLY seemed to shoot up over a month.

ok AND WOW
so you guy's are telling me I didn't get the right E2 test done again... great I even wrote it down and showed him i wrote "e2"

christ.

Ksman "T in #29 is slow, live with it"
so it really doesn't matter if the oil goes directly in the muscle?

ALSO I can potentially get off TRT (I didn't start shots yet and still doing gel)
to do LH/FSH, I imagine it will take a month or two though before taking them or is it a complete lost cause at this point?

I salt my food every 3ish days. I don't frequently salt foods, I did not stop using iodized salt completely though.

Will read over the stickies and try to post temps soon.

also sorry I realize I made a couple threads already. I will make this thread my official thread.

-age 24

-height 5'11

-waist approx 33

-weight 185

-describe body and facial hair
chest hair decent, not close together and not dense but consistent and covers whole chest to about the edge of the nipples, probably the thickest mid chest in area between nipples, thins a bit going up on chest and to bottom of the neck

stomach hair pretty similar to chest hair

thin dark hairs on lower arms

not much hair on upper arms, small white hairs and darker longer hairs here and there.

facial hair grows up to cheekbones about, hair is decent and looks best at the "scruff" look or clean shaving. not dense enough to grow a nice beard but hair grows in all the right places, the individual hairs are slightly too spaced out to grow good facial hair other then the occasional goatee or whatever which looks decent.

-describe where you carry fat and how changed
(tested by stripping, flexing whole body, and hopping in front of mirror)
I notice most bounce in lower stomach around the bottom ab area, a bit in pecs, and small amount in inner thigh area

-health conditions, symptoms [history]
took a bit of adderal in highschool for a few weeks i think tops
had racing heart on it when I smoked, lasted a bit, thought I was going to have to go to ER was very scared.

stopped doing that

3/5/2012 is around when I got my lefty guy cut out.
7/10/2012 (first testosterone bloodwork) 364
2/26/2013 when I get put on a heart monitor because i had a few incidences of racing heart I imagine in the month or two leading to this date
IMPRESSIONS AND FINDINGS:

Sinus arrhythmia with rare inverted P waves/atrial ectopic
beats, frequent sinus tachycardia, SA block vs wenckebach,
and rare nocturnal sinus bradycardia.
Very rare multifocal ventricular ectopic singles.
Very rare supraventricular ectopic singles and one pair.
Pauses were present @ night with the longest lasting 2.87sec
at 06:09.
Unable to reference symptom listed on diary, no time noted.
Event marker was activated once and correlated with sinus
arrhythmia.

haven't had racing heart for a bit now, nothing notable on that presently.

-describe diet [some create substantial damage with starvation diets]
breakfast typically eggs 3 whole atleast, grain bread, bagel,

lunch as of lately (combination of normally 2ish) turkey sandwich, leftovers, lean cuisine microwave sandwich

Dinner typical, side of vegetables, broccoli, green beans (every other day or so)
Chicken, maybe burritos, normally some form of protein, chicken is pretty standard
side, potatoes, coos coos rice, stuffing, something of the sort.

-describe training [some ruin there hormones by over training]
used to train almost everyday, mainly body weight stuff, lots of pushups, would do around 12 sets of 20-30, bicep curls, chin ups, shrugs
next day i would do some rows, light weight squats with higher reps, maybe 2-3 sets or so, small jog shoulder press, and some fly's
possible rest day, if not tired would do upperbody day again

lately I have been taking a rest day every third day, and lately that rest day turns into several days.

-testes ache, ever, with a fever?
Not that I am aware of, nothing noticable

-how have morning wood and nocturnal erections changed
Less frequent lately definitely. will sometimes notice myself hard in mornings or if i wake up but normally i am not when I wake up as of lately.
erection strength has gone down i would say confidently, also lose them quicker.


#9

Injected T is always 100% absorbed, IM or SC.
SC is slower release, so levels steadier.
Canadian research showed improved well-being with weekly shots.
More frequent injections better yet.

Ping me at KSman is here thread with body temps.
Your iodine intake is inadequate..


#10

I got the thyroid labs ordered, should I ask for a different E2 test or did I do the right one?

I was hoping to go in for bloodwork in the next day or two

Only thing I've been doing differently in the last month from my previous thy lab that was around 2 TSH

was
A. get put on androgel
B. take some Benadryl (Dimhenhydramine) for 4-5 days to help me adjust my sleep schedule. (I did take one within 24 hours of the blood work, i doubt it could effect it that drastically but i'm no doctor)

I got my thermo all ready next to my bed then realized it wasn't working correctly, out of battery or something, getting another tomar.

also, should I temporarily come of TrT to do FH/FSH tests?

just had an ultrasound on my right testicle findings were "unremarkable" (2 days ago)

so the problem is in my thyroid then? if so then why am I on trt and not just trying to treat the problem there?


#11

putting some older tests in this thread

2013
Testosterone 220 - 1000 ng/dL 300
Testosterone Free % 0.5 - 3.2 % 3.4 H
Testosterone Free 40 - 240 pg/mL 102.3

6/3/2015
Testosterone 220 - 1000 ng/dL 176 L
Testosterone Free % 0.5 - 3.2 % 2.8
Testosterone Free 40 - 240 pg/mL 50.0

"Lipid basics" 6-3-2015
Triglyceride 30 - 149 mg/dL 60
Cholesterol 100 - 199 mg/dL 137
HDL Cholesterol >45 mg/dL 56
VLDL Cholesterol 6 - 40 mg/dL 12
LDL Cholesterol 60 - 129 mg/dL 69
Fasting Time Unknown
TC:HDL Ratio 1.00 - 5.00 2.45
LDL:HDL Ratio 0.50 - 3.55 1.23
Non HDL Cholesterol 90 - 159 mg/dL 81 L

6-18-2015
TSH 0.400 - 5.500 uU/mL 2.390

7-22-2015 (on gel)
Testosterone 220 - 1000 ng/dL 306

prolact 7-22-2015
Prolactin 2.0 - 14.0 ng/mL 8.7


#12

6-18-2015

Cholesterol 100 - 199 mg/dL 137

Total cholesterol is too low. 160 and lower are associated with increased all-cause mortality. Cholesterol is the foundation for making vit-D3 and all steroid hormones, including cortisol. Increase cholesterol if possible.

TSH is too high.
T gel not absorbing, a symptom of low thyroid function.
(need to inject T to get good T levels)

E2=estradiol


#13

Just to affirm what KSman has told people...

I have done the 23g 1 or 1.5" IM with labs, done SubQ with labs, and done 1/2" 27-29g IM with labs....it all works the same. I know there is some talk by people you need to bury a 1" in thigh or 1.5" in glutes, but I have tried all 3 methods with various sizes and my labs always came out good. So whatever way you administer it, it seems to get to where it needs to go. Maybe AAS works different and thats why guys say you must use big ones?

As far as what the pharmacy gives you I ran into the same problems, but they told me essentially if you have a script for 1" 23g or 25g for example, and all they have in stock is 1.5", that they can technically just give you what they have in stock because it all works same. But I was like hey when you are doing thigh injects, a 1.5" looks like a harpoon. So your doc may have given you a script for his preference and the pharmacy just gave you whatever they had in stock that was close. Maybe call pharmacy and say you need the smaller ones as they have allowed me to come back and exchange the times I got home and opened the package only to find 1.5" monsters.


#14

It's sorted with the needles. I got 35g 1 inch.

I'm actually kind of curious about the insulin needles now. not to sound like a wuss but anything shorter and thinner sounds better to me, Is it really the same shooting into fat layer as it is into muscle?

also how would I go about raising cholesterol by a few points?
for some reason this isn't worrying me too much, probably because we are raised hearing "cholesterol is BAD, omg cholesterol demons scary scary"

as for iodine and selenuim (forgot exact name) got a multi with both of these in it 100% DV atleast. so hopefully my body will absorb the vitamins, i hear the stories about how vitamins are crap and don't work but i'm not sure if I completely buy it.

as for temp, morning wasn't too high, was about 97 but i forgot exactly. my night temp was 97.8 i think.

I have been just taking the multi for the last few days, feeling ok, I kind of want to get off trt for a month before I get deep into it so i can get LH and FSH tests done.


#15

"I got 35g 1 inch"
Really?


#16

sorry mistype I meant 25g

if it ends up being thyroid issues that is effecting my T, should I just stay on T for now or try to "fix" my thyroid somehow?


#17

Get temps when you wake up and mid-afternoon [looking to see if 98.6 obtainable]. Temps may be decreasing at night.

What exactly is about 97? Need to write things down?

You will find #29 1/2" 0.5ml [50iu]insulin syringes easier to live with, and no Rx required in most jurisdictions.


#18

Just an opinion, but a great comprehensive multi is Metabolic Synergy from Designs for Health. Just make sure to take with food or fish oil.


#19

Some new labs.

9-2-2015 (now it shot down... wtf, this is after taking multi with iodine i THINK, don't quote me though because I forgot at this point)
TSH 0.400 - 5.500 uU/mL 2.040

9-2-2015
Free T3 1.8 - 4.6 pg/mL 3.4

9-2-2015
Microsomal Antibody <5.6 IU/mL <1.0

9-2-2015
Thyroglobulin Ab <14.4 IU/mL <1.0


#20

Newer body temperatures?