Push ups vs Bench Press

“Why are pull downs a dork exercises? Simple. In pull downs, you move a free-moving object (the bar) around you. It’s easier to use your lower back and momentum to pull the weight. “Easier” is never the best way to build strength and musculature”


Yes, Cupcake is going to participate in a serious discussion…I also read up top that there is some sort of e-zine around here? I’m gonna check that out too!

If this is indeed the reason that Chins are better than Pull downs (Yeah, I agree they are but pullin’ down stacks of iron makes me feel manly…chins? No.) I fail to see the relation to Bench’s…yes you can “cheat” while benching but you can “cheat” while performing push-ups too (arching your back, spreading your feet etc…) as for momentum during the bench? If you got momentum on your side doing benches, you are REALLY doing something wrong (like perhaps you are upside down!).

Sooooo…IMO Benches are/would be superior to Push-ups regardless what kind of rig you used for loading (and a whole lot more convenient too…)

“The one serious conviction that a man should have is that nothing is to be taken too seriously”

~ Samuel Butler

Thanks for the well thought out replies … really got me thinking now.

I figured loading would be the main issue. Love that smith machine idea - bet I get a lot of strange looks when I try that one out.

Personally, I’m intentionally stripping the bench press from my training.

The way I see it, if you could blame the all too common boxy unathletic physique in gym rats on one exercise, it would be the bench press.

Of course, if that’s the look you’re going for, more power to ya. But it’s not for me.

Once I’m done meltdown (oh, what a glorious day THAT will be!) I’m gonna try CW’s stuff from “Build a Huge Chest in Six Weeks”… despite how disgustingly MuscleMag that article title is. :wink:

Cupcake:

I notice you didn’t address the rest of Poliquin’s quote:

“With chins, you have to move your body around a fixed object (the bar) … This movement is more realistic and has a much better transference to sports performance.”

What I am suggesting is pullups are similar to push ups because the latter also involves moving your body relative to a fixed point.

I’m not so sure form is really the issue here anyway. Chins with perfect form are still regarded as superior to pull downs with perfect form. Afterall it is just as possible to do chins with poor form as it is with any lift. (You know, the copulating with an invisible partner in mid air look) - but this doesn’t disqualify their superiority to the pull down.

Only “problem” with just pushups is that normally you are lifting only about 65 percent of your bodyweight whereas a chinup or dip has you lifting more of your bodyweight, thus making the exercise more difficult yet more beneficial.

I’m sure you can add loading to your pushups with weights or using bands, but why not just use the bench press?

I actually do very little benching on my Renegade program. I typically do 5-6 sets of bench press per week. But I also do pushups on almost every training day for several sets of 30.

Mook…

No I didn’t as there is no “fixed point” to move the body around in a push up so the reference was one sided (unless I am not thinking of it properly). I guess my point is that on paper perhaps a sufficiently weighted push-up may be better than a similiarily weighted bench but I don’t think that you could execute any kind of proper form with sufficient weight.

A Heavy bench will not ever be replaced by a “heavy push-up”. Of coure the “Freedom of Scapula” argument sounds interesting…

Do them all, get HUGE!

“A throne is only a bench covered with velvet”

~ Napoleon Bonaparte

[quote]Handstand pushups are a tremendous way to increase your vertical pressing, particularly toward the ‘lockout’ range.
I worked up to 20+ reps with this exercise and it had a VERY positive effect on my overhead pressing.[/quote]

Holy carumba Ike, 20+ handstand pushups is freakin awesome!

One way to over come the loading problem for pushups is to do offsets, 1 hand on a medicine ball. Try those puppies for a while.

I’ve been messing with loaded variants of push ups for a while. When on vacation I used a resistance band to add weight to the push up. After a while I started doing push up with my hands on blocks to get longer movements. Then feet up against teh wall to do handstand push ups. I could only muster 3 or 4 of these by the end of my vacation in good form and doing more in bad form is plain dangerous.

All in all I find push ups better for my chest than benching and I feel more capable. I also move my arm positioning around a lot. One day as wide as I can go, others as narrow. I also like doing plyometic push-ups, a clap here and there will knock you on your ass after 12 reps.

Cupcake, I can kind of see what you’re saying but let me break it down for you.

Pull downs and bench, you are stationary, the weight is in motion.

In both pull ups and push ups, YOU are in motion.

Keep in mind that even though I am suggesting that push ups might be better than bench, I don’t for one moment think that they would be so in the same magitude as the difference between pull ups and pull downs.

Nate: Have you read this whole thread? You ask why not just use the bench press when I and others have already offered several reasons that weighted push ups MIGHT indeed be better.

Nope. I didn’t read the whole thread. I responded to the original question and didn’t see the need in reading all the posts.

What about the fact that the pushup is closer to a machine movement as it has a more closed range of motion then the bench press?

The body being fixed at three points does not really allow the body to make adjustments in the range of motion with fatigue.

Could this cause any of the same problems that Chek talks about in his article where he outlines pattern overload injuries that occur with the use of machines?
If you have not read the article do a search for it I found it very interesting!!!

When you think about it a push-up more closely resembles a machine bench press then a barbell or dumbbell bench press. Most of us will agree that a freeweight bench press is superior to a machine bench press even if we only consider such things as agaonist/stabilizer recruitment and ignore the safety issues outlined by chek in the afforementioned pattern overload articles.

Also as far as something resembling real life movements…Neither of them really resemble real life movements that much. I would think a push press would have the most resemblance to real world activities… How often would you ever press against an object that you will never ever move? Not that resembling real world activities means anything or has any real significance (I am not really convinced about most “functional” training)

Would anyone care to comment (agree or disagree) on these statements???

Moo: I’ll willing to bet that Nate did read the whole thread, he was just saying that it is easier to bench then to worry about using elastic bands and placing weights/smithmachine on your back.

Chris I disagree w/ you that a push-up is like a machine chest press. W/ little or no range of motion. Then what the hell is a plyo-push-up or push-ups w/ feet on the bench, Phsio-ball push-ups? Push-up will give you the same range of motion as a bench press or dumbbell press.

Dude… you need to start adding external loading, then. :slight_smile:

Dave, I salute you!

Hyphnz: Overhead pressing is sort of a forte of mine. But, don’t be too freaked out, I only weigh ~175! :slight_smile:

I respectfully disagree on both points.

A push up does not necessarily have to have a more limited range of motion. Ever do push ups on chairs? On a bar?

Your body is not a fixed board either - it is free to make subtle adjustments within 3 dimensions during a push up, whereas a machine or smith machine press is confined to a single plane which is responsible for the pattern overload which Chek describes.

If I remember that article correctly, Chek mentions that for someone benching with the smith machine to be able to use the right muscles at the right time they’d have to contort themselves under the bar during the lift - this is clearly impossible to do, but easily achieved during a push up.

I don’t think it’s as simple as looking at a push up as being “fixed” at 3 points - a fairer comparison would be to look at the relative surface area of the contact points which gives a greater indication of mobility or lack thereof (ie how “fixed” the body is.)

To expand upon that idea, take a glance at Waterbury’s last article and you’ll see that two of your “fixed” points aren’t necessarily as fixed as you might think.

Fitone and MookJong:
Im glad you disagree with me. I was just throwing an idea out hopefully to get a responce and get some good discussion going…

I must clear something up though I did not intend to say that the pushup has a reduced range of motion just a more restricted one… Ie the arms are not free to move in 3 directions/dimensions (as with a dumbell press) or even 2 ie (barbell bench press) … The magnitude of the range of motion as you both pointed out is very similar…

Yes Mook I did read Chads article, but if loading is to be constant as you would need in many cases, I dont think i will be doing pushups on a slipery floor with a slippery towel under my hands with 200lbs resting across my back… You can if you want… Im not that game… I imagine that doing pushups with comparable loads to benching will be hard enough…

I am actually very pro pushups and think the bench is over rated but the simplicity in loading makes it a more practical option for most people most the time.

Chek is a big proponent of exercises in which stabilizers have to work hard. The pushup requires much more work to stabilize than does the bench press. In the bench press, almost your whole body is fully supported by the bench. In pushups, you have to contract your own stabilizer/torso muscles. Chek would probably recommend pushups with feet and hands on Swiss balls. :wink:

Chris, I agree that your arms are less free to move during a push up than during a bench press but compare how free the rest of your body is to move between the two. Similar to the push up, your arms are more fixed in a chin than they are in a pull down.

I must also agree with being wary of doing slide push ups with weight … I simply offered that as an example of how the arms aren’t necessarily as “fixed” as we might think during a push up.

No doubt that loading really is the issue … but as it seems there’s quite a bit of agreement with me on the potential superiority of push ups, I think it will probably be worth my time to experiment with loading methods.

I’ve always believed that a lot of the mass built while bench pressing comes from having to stabilize the weight with just your arms. When doing pushups, the weight is made very very stable by your feet.

JMB

Mook: Looks like we are in 98% agreement then which is good enough for me :slight_smile:

For those still reading the thread how do you incorporate pushups in your plan?

My personal favorites are clap pushups, pushups with my hands on a swiss ball and feet on an elevated surface, and handstand pushups.

Mook: make sure to tell us how your quest for additional loading goes… Im keen to see what you come up with.

Ok, as one that’s suffered long from shoulder injuries I’ve had to find alternative ways of doing my favourite exercises. Now, I know it’s not going to make me popular AND you’re going to slag me off for suggesting this BUT what about benching with a swiss ball? I find that the ol’ rotator cuff probs have become much better since I started using it this way due to the freedom of movement that it allows your shoulders. Plus you can make some interesting variations on angle which tends to hit the muscle different ways a-la tellykinetics.
Have a good easter all.
BMF