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Push Pull W/O Critique


hey guys just wondering what you think about this push/pull/legs routine

deadlifts 5x5
bent over BB rows 4x6-8
Lat pulldown 4x6-8
DB or BB curls 2x8-10

bench press 5x5
incline/decline DB press 4x6-8 (alternate each week)
military press or seated DB press 4x6-8
dips (add weight if neccesary) 4x6-8
tricep exstensions or pulldowns 2x8-10

squats 5x5
SLDLs 4x6-8
DB static or walking lunges(knee to ground) 4x6-8
glute-ham raises or good mornings 3x8-10


Im doing something almost identical, but for pull i use chins instead of curls, and wg pullups instead of pulldowns. Although that many compound movements after deads is mad taxing on your cns, and strength, thats why i do a rotating split...ie...

Push 1

dips (weighted)
arnold press
decline db or bb
flat db or bb

Push 2
OHP db or bb
cg bench
incline db or bb

Pull 1
BB row
CG cable row
reverse hypers

Pull 2
db row
wg cable row

calf raises
leg press
(ill mix up leg days with various of the above)

so monday push 1/tues pull 1/wed legs/fri push 2/etc...


IMO you could do a squat-dominant leg day, a DL leg-day, and do fewer exercises...I assume youre working out 3 times a week, why not do...

legs 1
squats 4-5x5 (heavy but not to failure, unless you wanna do the 5x5 thing where you do go to failure)
good mornings 1-2x10 OPTIONAL
walking lunges 2x8 (lighter, def not to failure)
1 ab and or 1 calf exercise (go heavy!)

legs 2
DLs 4x5 (go heavy but not to failure, shrug at the top if you feel like it)
SLDLs 2x6 (lighter)
1 diff. ab and 1 diff. calf exercise (heavy again)

pull day:
[I'm not a big fan of curls or lat pulldowns, just do some chin-ups or pullups and you've got a more effective version of both!]

bent over bb rows 3x6-8 to failure
chin-ups, weighted if possible, 3-4x10, to failure if you wish
shrugs 4x6 (to failure)

you've got a lot of stuff on the menu here, too much IMO, so drop the tri ext.

weighted dips 3x10 (not to failure, just stimulate the muscles involves)
BB bench press 4x5 (to failure) (alternate inc/flat weekly, dips eliminate the decline)
standing military press 3x8 (optionally to failure)

switch the order of dips and the bench press if you wish, but don't do both to failure, only one.

tried to keep your basic ideas and offer what I think are some improvements, tell me what you think. I definitely thought you were overloading on leg day and pull day.


thanx for opinions also how much strength on the 3 main lifts do you think ill gain


Looks good. If you can do chins, do them in plce of pulldowns


Hard to say how much you'll gain. Since you're 5'10 145lb, you'll probably gain a lot quickly.

Are you more concerned about strength or mass? They come together, and at your weight they have to come together. If you eat right you should gain a couple of pounds a week at a minimum, and with that your lifts should be...I don't know...30% higher in 2-3 months? Just a guess.

Take it slow, don't be hard on yourself just 'cause you aren't that strong yet. Stay motivated, just enjoy lifting.

You may be interested in the program I'm doing, Anti-bodybuilding Hypertrophy by Chad Waterbury. Search through my posts and you'll see "Order of Waterbury workouts."

There, some programs are recommended for "an equal product of mass and hypertrophy."

Your program looks pretty good...but you may wanna check out ABBH once you plateau with it. I love it, it's a lot of fun.

And the reason I say don't go to failure is because it isn't necessary to build muscle, and you may actually be better off just stimulating the muscles instead of breaking em down 100%.

Try this order with the above program:

8 day split
Upper body
lower body
upper body
lower body


k thanx guys i been doin a bodybuilding program for about 1.5 years that wasnt the best program and now i just started this today. just wondering how good my current lifts are for my weight:
Weight 65kg=143.3lbs
Bench 80kg=176.4lbs x5
Squat 80kg=176.4lbs x5
Deadlift 100kg=220.5lbs x5 (wooo new record :D)
weak legs :frowning:


You didn't say how old you are but you have been working out for 1.5 years and you weigh 145lbs. You need to eat more. Stop making excuses. The problem was probably not your previous "bodybuilding" program (as opposed to what btw?). You just need to eat more, then use any good program on this site. Did I mention your problem is not eating enough?


Alwyn Cosgrove:
23. Skinny guys always think it's their training. Fat guys always think it's their diet. Usually skinny guys need a better diet and fat guys need a better training program.


im 17 and im not skinny if i had a decent camera fone id upload some pics also i think i eat heaps i never starve myself or over eat and i eat about 6 meals a day 3 big ones n 3 moderate ones. also i wanted to add external rotation to the program, should i? and like how many sets reps?


Okay, so you are not skinny and you don't starve yourself. Those are pretty low standards. You are probably eating less than than you think. My evidence...you weigh 145lbs. Do a search on this site for Massive Eating by John Berardi. Do the math in Part II to find out how many calories you need to gain weight.


how long should my rest time be ???


Appropriate rest times are dependent upon the goal of your training. Power, hypertrophy, and strength each have different rest periods to best stimulate those modalities. In general, since this seems as your first real program, meaning you'll recover quicker between sets since you are not yet efficient enough with your CNS to recruit a high percent of muscle fibers-so about 3 minute rest for your 'main course' lifts and 60-90 seconds for your dessert/assistance work. Add in external rotations after any pec/delt work. Also don't just ask question after question, try searching. Cressey's 'cracking the rotator cuff conundrum' will actually teach you something more than a 'set/rep' scheme.

Oh yea, you are skinny. So clearly your issue has been diet. So the Alwyn Cosgrove quote #23 was spot on.


On average, just less than 2mins but for really extreme sets maybe 3+.

Do something else while you rest though. Don't just sit there doing nothing for a couple of minutes or you won't be in the zone when it's time for the next set. You can stretch, do light recovery cardio (personal favourite) or abs.

Abs are the worst choice above though, as the idea is to be 'recovered' for the next set. Not 'still tired but no with burning abs'.


I'm 6'ish and 175 and I'm skinny...if you're 5'10, 145 you're skinnier than me, and that's pretty skinny. I don't feel like a TWIG, but I want to gain.

I agree that it's your diet. According to massive eating I need about 4300-4600 calories, so you'll probably need 4000+...that's a lot, you probably arent getting that many yet.


lolz do u guys mean skinny as in low body fat or as in no muscle coz damn australian teens must be underweight coz 143lbs roughly 65kgs is pretty much and average around here for my age, i do have a low bodyfat and obviously i am underweight to american standards (no offense meant in any way) but im like the third most muscular guy in year 12 is it possible to have a muscular appearance while being light?


whoa. my bad then, you're the 3rd most muscular dude in grade 12. then everything written by myself and other well intentioned posters are not applicable to you, since we clearly did not realize what kind of bulking machine we were dealing with.

why do you ask questions if you don't want answers?

I'm sure the salty vets here will love your pictures. put them up. by giving the caveat that you are 'big by aussie standards' you are just giving the kiwis more fuel for the fire.


im not saying im big but then again i didnt say ne1 in my school was HUGE either and no need to act like a smarta**


Your BMR is 2701 calories. That's what it takes just to maintain. To gain, try adding another 250 calories per day.

As far as your routine goes, I'd add the squats, lunges and calves to your push day, and varied types of DLs to your pull day.