Punching Power and Then Some

Bigger Stronger Leaner
21

[quote]Robert A wrote:

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
I wouldn’t really agree that you “punch from your stomach”… I believe that you really punch from your feet.
[/quote]

This is absolutely true. We are bipedal animals, and we are also governed by physics.

Newton’s third law of motion states that “For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.” This means that if I want to be able to generate force in one direction, I must Ihave something bracing me in the opposite direction. Since we are terrestrial bipedal animals, this means that our legs are what brace us against the ground in order to allow us to generate force forwards. It doesn’t matter if it’s pushing your broken down car, or throwing a punch, the legs must brace/push off of the ground. The same is true when talking about absorbing force.

That’s part of it; rotation is definitely one of the sources which you can draw upon to generate greater power. But it’s not the only one. Different types of strikes will depend more or less on rotation for their power.

Again it comes back to physics. The formula for Kinetic energy 1/2 the object’s mass times it’s velocity squared. So, if you want to be able to develop greater levels of kinetic energy in your punches all you have to do is figure out ways to either increase their velocity (relaxation is huge here) or mass (this is where things like footwork/locomotion come into play).

Finally, you have to take into consideration leverage. Just like with weight lifting exercises success in generating power will often be determined by whether or not your have enough leverage to complete the task. [/quote]

Good posts.

WARNING! THE FOLLOWING IS APPROACHING CRITICAL NERD. DO NOT CONTINUE IF YOU WISH TO REMAIN COOL.

To whom it may concern:

I think momentum is the much more germane calculation/nerd factor for striking than kinetic energy. First of all it is a vector so the direction of the force matters. Second, and this is my opinion based on some text book/lab understanding of physics/and mechanisms of wounding combined with redneck/dumb guy normal thought, it better describes what we know happens when we punch or get punched.

Momentum, p, is simply mass, expressed in kg, multiplied by velocity, expressed in meters per second. p = mv expressed in kg-m/s (kilogram meters per second). Kinetic energy undervalues mass and way oversells velocity when we are talking about punches/kicks/strikes. I grant that KE might have more sway when discussing high velocity (lets say 2000 ft/sec plus) rifle bullets because cavitation in tissue is a mechanism of wounding, but with punches momentum tells a better story.

If KE was the appropriate measure, than holding a small weight in my hand, e.g. a roll of quarters, would make me hit lighter than without it. My fist would be traveling slower (lets assume similar punch mechanics so straight vs straight). The velocity difference would be an exponential factor.

This doesn’t seem to work out. The hand load makes you hit harder. Not that it is at all necessary to do physics calculations in order to knock someone onto queer street.

A salient point with both p and KE is that they use velocity not speed. Velocity is directional, so only the amount of ass, mass, you get going in the direction of the strike, velocity, matters.

/NERD

Again good posts guys.

I recommend getting a copy of Jack Dempsey’s book if anyone reading this is interested in the mechanics of punching.

Regards,

Robert A

[/quote]

You sir are a gentleman and a scholar! This is the best explanation I could not think of for my talk about hitting relaxed. Hitting relaxed equals hitting heavy.

Someone put forward a similar point to me once by explaining the average human arm dissected off of the body weighs 7kg. So imaging 7 kg dropped onto your face from say half a meter away. Now imagine 7 kg thrown into your face, or ribs or wherever.

22

Great points so far. Certain people are predisposed to hitting harder by the nature of their frame. Ie, wide hips, wide shoulders…as opposed to skinny as a rail types with narrow shoulders.

Shadowbox a ton, because it works the technique but also the rythm, distancing and other aspects that give the total amount of perceived power, as opposed to purely physical power. Or if you are into karate, hit a makiwara. I think for actual fighting hand conditioning is very underrated.

I used to box, and would workout with a friend who never competed. He would do tons and tons of bagwork, just crushing the bag. However, when we would spar, he wouldnt hit me, and was not able to transfer any of his power due to not training the softer attributes of timing, distance, etc. This is why you will see guys who are monsters on the bag/pads/gym etc, get destroyed in the ring.

Power can definatley be improved by weight training, if your technique is already good. Deadlifts, high rep one arm rows, etc… all basics. The stronger my legs and back have become, the harder I hit. I have also been training over a decade though, so the technical foundation is already there.

23

Rich I agree with you there, ultimately the only way to get better is to fight as much as possible.

As I’ve got to training with some more interesting people, hitting a person is far more beneficial to hitting a bag.

Also hand conditioning is a biggy too. I still do pushups only on my fist. Even better than that though we got directed at training to do pushups on another person. Nuts as it sounds it helps with the placement of strikes, you get to find how to make your fists “stick”.

24

Accepting that good technique, mechanics, timing and distance trump raw power, I wonder what people’s opinions might be regarding the value of the full contact twist for developing/transferring punching power?

25

[quote]backyardleopard wrote:

One of the reasons why I have been thinking so much about punching from the stomach is for instances where you don’t have the range. Punching from the ground say? Or some sort of restricted quarters. I’m splitting hairs a little here I know, but I still think it bares worth mentioning a little.
[/quote]

Ah man, you motherfuckers totally lost me with all that physics talk. I don’t understand any of that kind of thing.

What I do know is that punching from the stomach - or, one might say, just the hips - is the way I used to do it when I was involved in karate.

It can make for a pretty powerful punch I guess… but in my opinion, never as powerful as actually turning your whole weight into it.

Unless you’re literally fighting in a phone booth, there will always be room for you to rotate your feet and get some leverage. If there isn’t, you’ve got bigger problems that getting your ass kicked.

26

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Ah man, you motherfuckers totally lost me with all that physics talk. I don’t understand any of that kind of thing.
[/quote]
Didn’t mean to. Basically kinetic energy could lead one to think that hitting faster, even at a great expense of how much weight/mass/leverage is put into the punch, would equal a harder/stronger blow.

That don’t seem to work out. Sap gloves and hand loads allow harder blows by increasing mass at the expense of speed. If I had a choice of eating your left empty handed, or with you palming a roll of quarters I am taking the former.

I suggested momentum because:
1.) It is a vector (direction matters) so it means that only the body weight you have going into the punch helps. If you are flailing around in a bunch of directions you are increasing the “energy”, but not the effect of the blow. Kinetic Energy is termed a “scaler” and has no direction.

The punchers with great “short power” are usually masters of getting what they can “into” the punch. Meaning getting as much of their body weight going in the direction of the strike. Dempsey called punches where the body and the fist are moving in the same direction as “pure”.

2.) Momentum places a more equal value on velocity, how fast you are moving in the direction of the strike, and mass, how much of your body you are getting “into” the punch (I think this is what you mean by leverage) so it describes what we know. “Pushing” with punches really doesn’t do as much damage regardless because it happens too slowly, but hitting fast with an “arm punch” won’t let me punch my way out of a paper bag either.

Basically get as much as possible, moving as fast as possible, in the direction you want the strike to go. This matches up pretty well with what we all see going on when good punchers punch. It also allows for a quick explanation for common mistakes.

Puncher “A” hits weak because he is too rigid. He thinks he is hitting hard because he is doing a lot of work and his muscles are straining. He is flexing all his muscles and consequently is moving way too slow. If he would loosen up and throws “crisper”, or “faster”, or with “more pop” then he would hit “harder”.

Puncher “B” is plenty loose and fast but still hits like a bitch. He is not getting enough of his body weight into the blows. This is the “slapping” type of puncher. Oh, he’s fast and he can punch in combinations great because he doesn’t need to shift a lot of weight from punch to punch. Maybe his name is Calzaghe? Problem is that you can sort of “walk through” his punches to land on him. If he is not holding a box cutter he is pretty well fucked when anyone grabs a hold of him.

Puncher “C” is definately moving his weight around. He is moving fast. He is putting a lot of “effort” into his strikes. They still are not doing all that well, especially when he gets tired. This is the guy that contracts explosively but is all fucking over. He twists his hips/shoulders way farther than he needs to on straight punches. He tries to drive forward with his hooks. He is wasting energy by moving a bunch of his mass in directions the punch is not going. Stepping foreward with a hook is not the same thing as stepping/“shifting” into the hook. If your knuckles are ripping into my spleen from the side, your body weight should be going as close to that direction as possible. That is the “weight”/“leverage” that goes “into” the punch and breaks my ribs.

I know you have seen these mistakes Irish. Hell, “A”, “B”, and “C” probably have faces for you. Sentoguy teaches, so for him they probably all have too many faces to count.

Physics explains this, and it needs to be able to. If we try to use physics to explain something that we know happens, like say you injuring me when you hit me and the math doesn’t add up than we did the math wrong. The broken bones and blackened eyes are all to real.

I have written this before, but if you have good technique you will never fight alone. Issac Newton, Archimedes, and the other giants of physics will be with you ready to pull a train on whomever stands against you.

I went into the whole physics thing not so much for you and Sento, I know that you guys know what you are doing, but in case anyone is lurking and starts trying to match up the great advice you two are doling out with a physics text. Note: I have actually read and heard on real life some instructors saying they hit much harder than boxers because the punch of a boxer is reliant on mass, and that they use speed to create their kinetic energy. Guess how well that shit sits with me?

As for why I wrote this post.
RANT COMING:
I probably go too far into the book shit in my posts because I really don’t want anyone to think they can’t understand it. Physics is about modeling/describing the world. Newtonian physics, the kind we are talking about, is something fighters already understand. I HATE when people convince themselves that something they are already applying is beyond their comprehension. Technical/clinical terms, like all language, are valuable only to convey information/ideas. I realize that some people like to use their education or familiarity with terms to hinder the understanding of others, this is anathema to how I view knowledge. I will go so far as to say that the fact some of those doing this are professors and doctors is fucking unconscionable.
RANT OVER

Regards,

Robert A

27

One of the best posts I’ve read in my nearly seven years on this forum Robert. Thanks man. I do understand what you’re saying there, and I agree.

Funny, because on shows like “Human Weapon,” they explain punching power through “kinetic linking” and what not - but what they’re showing in their diagrams is actually just proper technique.

It never made sense to me, but I never knew why until now.

28

Dammit Robert I like you! Aside from taking the time to write all that out, you explain it very very well. I have a bit of a background in physics so its not unfamiliar to me. But you explain it better than anyone I have ever come across and thats a gift, it really is.

Also, to reiterate what you said, physics is just a way of looking at things (in this context) and thats why I’m so glad you took the time to post it. Show someone an alternate perspective and it could trigger a new learning curb for them.

29

[quote]batman730 wrote:
Accepting that good technique, mechanics, timing and distance trump raw power, I wonder what people’s opinions might be regarding the value of the full contact twist for developing/transferring punching power?[/quote]

Are you referring to that story Pavel Tsatsouline wrote about Igor Sukhotsky by any chance?

I tried full contact twists for a few years, as an exercise they are great but as a carry over to develop rotational strength for clobbering someone I found I got more millage out of throwing things in the same plane of movement as the FCT.

But thats just me. I’m a really big believer in different strokes for different folks, hence me starting this thread.

30

[quote]backyardleopard wrote:
Dammit Robert I like you! Aside from taking the time to write all that out, you explain it very very well. I have a bit of a background in physics so its not unfamiliar to me. But you explain it better than anyone I have ever come across and thats a gift, it really is.

Also, to reiterate what you said, physics is just a way of looking at things (in this context) and thats why I’m so glad you took the time to post it. Show someone an alternate perspective and it could trigger a new learning curb for them.[/quote]

hahah, and he put it in gym terms so I would understand it.

31

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

[quote]backyardleopard wrote:
Dammit Robert I like you! Aside from taking the time to write all that out, you explain it very very well. I have a bit of a background in physics so its not unfamiliar to me. But you explain it better than anyone I have ever come across and thats a gift, it really is.

Also, to reiterate what you said, physics is just a way of looking at things (in this context) and thats why I’m so glad you took the time to post it. Show someone an alternate perspective and it could trigger a new learning curb for them.[/quote]

hahah, and he put it in gym terms so I would understand it.[/quote]

Pffft, thats just what makes a really good teacher. Thats how I actually got the hang of this stuff a few years back, I have a friend who is a rocket scientist, literally, and thats how he explained it to me. All we ever need to learn something is the right sort of “translation”. Thats how things like discipline and work ethic carry over from sport into the rest of our lives.

32

Truely great thread.

Robert A, great post. I am fascinated by physics, but understand much too little of it. It is no small achievement that you are able to explain it so clearly.

33

Like Einstein said: “Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler.”. Great post in that regard.

34

Such a fuckin resource to this forum. Excellent stuff.

35

[quote]Robert A wrote:

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Ah man, you motherfuckers totally lost me with all that physics talk. I don’t understand any of that kind of thing.
[/quote]
Didn’t mean to. Basically kinetic energy could lead one to think that hitting faster, even at a great expense of how much weight/mass/leverage is put into the punch, would equal a harder/stronger blow.

That don’t seem to work out. Sap gloves and hand loads allow harder blows by increasing mass at the expense of speed. If I had a choice of eating your left empty handed, or with you palming a roll of quarters I am taking the former.

I suggested momentum because:
1.) It is a vector (direction matters) so it means that only the body weight you have going into the punch helps. If you are flailing around in a bunch of directions you are increasing the “energy”, but not the effect of the blow. Kinetic Energy is termed a “scaler” and has no direction.

The punchers with great “short power” are usually masters of getting what they can “into” the punch. Meaning getting as much of their body weight going in the direction of the strike. Dempsey called punches where the body and the fist are moving in the same direction as “pure”.

2.) Momentum places a more equal value on velocity, how fast you are moving in the direction of the strike, and mass, how much of your body you are getting “into” the punch (I think this is what you mean by leverage) so it describes what we know. “Pushing” with punches really doesn’t do as much damage regardless because it happens too slowly, but hitting fast with an “arm punch” won’t let me punch my way out of a paper bag either.

Basically get as much as possible, moving as fast as possible, in the direction you want the strike to go. This matches up pretty well with what we all see going on when good punchers punch. It also allows for a quick explanation for common mistakes.

Puncher “A” hits weak because he is too rigid. He thinks he is hitting hard because he is doing a lot of work and his muscles are straining. He is flexing all his muscles and consequently is moving way too slow. If he would loosen up and throws “crisper”, or “faster”, or with “more pop” then he would hit “harder”.

Puncher “B” is plenty loose and fast but still hits like a bitch. He is not getting enough of his body weight into the blows. This is the “slapping” type of puncher. Oh, he’s fast and he can punch in combinations great because he doesn’t need to shift a lot of weight from punch to punch. Maybe his name is Calzaghe? Problem is that you can sort of “walk through” his punches to land on him. If he is not holding a box cutter he is pretty well fucked when anyone grabs a hold of him.

Puncher “C” is definately moving his weight around. He is moving fast. He is putting a lot of “effort” into his strikes. They still are not doing all that well, especially when he gets tired. This is the guy that contracts explosively but is all fucking over. He twists his hips/shoulders way farther than he needs to on straight punches. He tries to drive forward with his hooks. He is wasting energy by moving a bunch of his mass in directions the punch is not going. Stepping foreward with a hook is not the same thing as stepping/“shifting” into the hook. If your knuckles are ripping into my spleen from the side, your body weight should be going as close to that direction as possible. That is the “weight”/“leverage” that goes “into” the punch and breaks my ribs.

I know you have seen these mistakes Irish. Hell, “A”, “B”, and “C” probably have faces for you. Sentoguy teaches, so for him they probably all have too many faces to count.

Physics explains this, and it needs to be able to. If we try to use physics to explain something that we know happens, like say you injuring me when you hit me and the math doesn’t add up than we did the math wrong. The broken bones and blackened eyes are all to real.

I have written this before, but if you have good technique you will never fight alone. Issac Newton, Archimedes, and the other giants of physics will be with you ready to pull a train on whomever stands against you.

I went into the whole physics thing not so much for you and Sento, I know that you guys know what you are doing, but in case anyone is lurking and starts trying to match up the great advice you two are doling out with a physics text. Note: I have actually read and heard on real life some instructors saying they hit much harder than boxers because the punch of a boxer is reliant on mass, and that they use speed to create their kinetic energy. Guess how well that shit sits with me?

As for why I wrote this post.
RANT COMING:
I probably go too far into the book shit in my posts because I really don’t want anyone to think they can’t understand it. Physics is about modeling/describing the world. Newtonian physics, the kind we are talking about, is something fighters already understand. I HATE when people convince themselves that something they are already applying is beyond their comprehension. Technical/clinical terms, like all language, are valuable only to convey information/ideas. I realize that some people like to use their education or familiarity with terms to hinder the understanding of others, this is anathema to how I view knowledge. I will go so far as to say that the fact some of those doing this are professors and doctors is fucking unconscionable.
RANT OVER

Regards,

Robert A[/quote]

Great post Robert. And yeah, now that you mention it, momentum does better explain the physics of striking than kinetic energy.

36

Robert you should be named GOD of this session of the forum.

INCREDIBLE POST!

37

[quote]kaisermetal wrote:
Robert you should be named GOD of this session of the forum.

INCREDIBLE POST![/quote]

Too true! I vote for his posts to be removed from here and sickied at the top of this forum.

38

This guy did the maths, you can tell.

39

Robert, bloody excellent post and good to see intellect in these threads.

My only addition to all the above is that you’re only as strong as your weakest link. You may have enough bodyweight, enough speed, force generation and ability to generate momentum but if your joints are weak, your ligaments, or tendons are weak and so on, then your cns will be preprogrammed not to exceed the limits of that weakness and there will always be a ‘braking’ system on your punching style, technique and effectively your power.

Only a select few people can switch off those inhibitions but the results are usually that they tear and break things in the process… usually their own body parts. When connective tissue and all other supportive tissue/structures are perfectly strong and in tact, then the cns will be primed to make it’s debut through the body.

The ability to completely and utterly relax the antagonists is something that alludes way too many fighters and as Robert said, they use up so much energy to perform a movement, lose power and tire themselves out. Those antagonists go into hyper mode if there are connective tissue/structural weaknesses.

40

[quote]humble wrote:
Robert, bloody excellent post and good to see intellect in these threads.

My only addition to all the above is that you’re only as strong as your weakest link. You may have enough bodyweight, enough speed, force generation and ability to generate momentum but if your joints are weak, your ligaments, or tendons are weak and so on, then your cns will be preprogrammed not to exceed the limits of that weakness and there will always be a ‘braking’ system on your punching style, technique and effectively your power.

Only a select few people can switch off those inhibitions but the results are usually that they tear and break things in the process… usually their own body parts. When connective tissue and all other supportive tissue/structures are perfectly strong and in tact, then the cns will be primed to make it’s debut through the body.

The ability to completely and utterly relax the antagonists is something that alludes way too many fighters and as Robert said, they use up so much energy to perform a movement, lose power and tire themselves out. Those antagonists go into hyper mode if there are connective tissue/structural weaknesses.
[/quote]

Good additions Humble.

Another thing that affects the antagonists is mental state/mindset. If you are mentally tense, stressed, or anxious it will generally translate into unwanted physical tension. Generally when you see an athlete “choking” it’s due to this unwanted physical/mental tension and the athlete then “tries” too hard to perform the skill, usually only exacerbating the situation.