T Nation

Protocol for Coming Off of TRT


#1

I've decided that TRT isn't for me and I'm going to attempt a restart. I've found many personal logs from others that have been very successful with a protocol from Dr. Scally and would like to know what others think.
My # 1 ? is what day to actually start the protocol they state timing is key. My last Test E shot of 60mg was 3 day's ago.

The HCG seems to be overkill but many swear that it needs to be followed to a T or it doesn't work. Also would I benefit from adding what HMG I have to the HCG to also stimulate to sterolli cells also. I'm also surprised that no AI is involved.

PROTOCOL
2500iUS OF HCG EOD FOR A TOTAL OF 8 SHOTS
50MG OF CLOMID MORNING AND 50MG CLOMID AT NIGHT TOTAL OF 30days
20MG OF NOLVADEX TOTAL OF 45days
Tapper off of both SERMS.

I'm supposed to get my Testosterone tested before the end of the HCG shots and if my levels are 400+ my balls have been stimulated enough for the effects of clomid and nolvadex to take over.
Users of this claim that before TRT they had levels of 200's-300's and after this restart they've maintained levels up to the 600's even 2yrs later.


#2

this is something that I have been interested as well, but like you have not found any definitive protocols. This one looks about average from what I have found - not sure about mixing two serms. I would love to know how things go for you if you give it a try.

are all of your other systems balanced and running smoothly? I am still waiting till I am at 100%+ so as to give myself the best chance that my other systems can handle the increased stress/transition.


#3

Yes all others are in order. I'm in contact with Scally himself today about all the different stuff thats been done and he agrees I should do a restart. Hopefully I he gets back to me today with something solid to try. The claim to combining the 2 serms is due to how they affect the LH and FSH secretion from the brain a dual threat I guess.The cool thing is this guy had no idea who I am until this morning and he responded asap my TRT Dr. who gets paid by me won't even return my messages or questions. Why is that Shawn aka HardasNails. At the very least I will do the protocol above and post a log of my progress.
My biggest if is when to start: at the half life of my test or after it clears my system completely.


#4

Most likely you are going to crash if you do not come of to having all the others variables in place. I already suggested what needs to be done and getting in a hurry is only going end getting you back to square one again. I noted in a email what needs to be done. You can contact gmerit on meso as I just did his evaluation and we found all the factors to why his testosterone levels has been low for so long. I am having a conference call with his dr and prepping his body to come off TRT for a restart. He tried Scallys protocol and crashed and burn. Now we know why he did not start and found hidden issues that have plaqued him for years. I am also working on several other restarts using the same approach which have had a greater success rate then just throwing stuff at the wall seeing if it sticks. Your trying to build a mansion by having a weak foundation and slapping things together really fast. It might look good for a little bit, but eventually it will crumble. Your looking for short term satisfaction, but not long term gradification. I just game back from AZ where I restarted a 42 year old guy. His T levels where <200 now they are close to 500 TT. He has his life back. He had to make radical changes in his lifestyle, but has his life back. It can take up to 4 months but if all the variables are in place it is well worth it. I used clomid in majority of restarts, but tamoxofin is also an option. Your jumping the gun with out having all your ducks in a row..

As with an business it is a business,
If you want talk to shippen, crister, dr mariano you schedule an appointment and pay. That is how they work. If you want a script you make an appointmet and pay for it 90% of specialize dr. Anything that goes wrong with your therapy, you call and make appointment which you pay to get a resolution. Some people have to suffer weeks or months inorder to resolution..We do things on the fly..


#5

PCT cannot work with primary hypogonadism. If levels are decent, with 'replacement' doses of hCG, proceed, other wise stop and do TRT.

Cannot work if the top end of the HPTA is broken. If T levels are good with a SERM, proceed, otherwise stop and do TRT.

Your libido can be a guide. If E2 is elevated, libido my be low, that is the reason for active E2 management, tested E2 would be valuable. Applies to hCG and SERMs.

Do not take high hCG doses as this may degrade your LH receptors and you cannot have a good landing from PCT on to buggered up LH receptor.

hCG needs to be taken for quite a while to allow for recovery and tissue changes. 8 doses is silly. However, a subsequent SERM, it if delivers good LH levels, will provide additional duration.

Do not take high dose SERMs as high LH levels can do the same as high levels of hCG.

Do not ever combine hCG and SERMs together.

High doses of hCG or LH levels that are high, will create high E2 generation inside the testes and anastrozole cannot control that source of E2 in your body. E2 levels can be unmanageable.

No need to combine SERMs.

Take anastrozole while on PCT and then land on 0.5mg/week, if you are a normal responder, and cruise on that to reduced the chances that estrogens will interfere with your HPTA switch over. Anastrozole dose on PCT depends on T levels.

The above is but a sketch.

I do not like the protocol from Scally. It is a stupid 'more is better' mentality that smells as bad as bro-science.

Nutrition needs to be right, and other aspects of vitality. Need supplements and EFAs. If blood work has other problems, those need to be resolved. Thyroid levels need to be right.


#6

""""Most likely you are going to crash if you do not come of to having all the others variables in place. I already suggested what needs to be done and getting in a hurry is only going end getting you back to square one again. I noted in a email what needs to be done. You can contact gmerit on meso as I just did his evaluation and we found all the factors to why his testosterone levels has been low for so long. I am having a conference call with his dr and prepping his body to come off TRT for a restart. He tried Scallys protocol and crashed and burn. Now we know why he did not start and found hidden issues that have plaqued him for years. I am also working on several other restarts using the same approach which have had a greater success rate then just throwing stuff at the wall seeing if it sticks. Your trying to build a mansion by having a weak foundation and slapping things together really fast. It might look good for a little bit, but eventually it will crumble. Your looking for short term satisfaction, but not long term gradification. I just game back from AZ where I restarted a 42 year old guy. His T levels where <200 now they are close to 500 TT. He has his life back. He had to make radical changes in his lifestyle, but has his life back. It can take up to 4 months but if all the variables are in place it is well worth it. I used clomid in majority of restarts, but tamoxofin is also an option. Your jumping the gun with out having all your ducks in a row.."""""

As with an business it is a business,
If you want talk to shippen, crister, dr mariano you schedule an appointment and pay. That is how they work. If you want a script you make an appointmet and pay for it 90% of specialize dr. Anything that goes wrong with your therapy, you call and make appointment which you pay to get a resolution. Some people have to suffer weeks or months inorder to resolution..We do things on the fly..
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Ok thanks Ksman. Before I had any treatment my endo did the clomid test and I went from high 200's to 576 so maybe I stand a chance. The only problem was my E2 was above 60 any I felt like crap maybe a low dose AI would help if I run into the same problem. Maybe nolvadex would be the way to go then. Would it be best to tapper off the Testosterone or just start taking nolva. 20mg/day would be sufficient right and stop everything else.

Hardasnails as for you I've sent you 3 different emails after the 1 you replied to asking what you would like to do for the restart and if we could have a consultation. I asked do I need to tapper off of my testosterone so we could get started. You once again have not replied to any of them.
If you claim you sent me an email of what needs to be done then resend it because I have received nothing in either of my email addresses I have.
It's a shame I have to call you out on a public forum again to get a response when I've hired you for your help. This shit needs to end this treatment has me feeling like crap and I want out. I should have just stayed with the serm for sole treatment. Let me know via email, phone call, or a post even if your going to advise me on this or if I need to seek other help.


#7

If you want to pull the thread to where there miscommunication because of emails before I will be glad to do that. To put this to rest. I just sent you 3 email back with in 30 minutes on a freaken SUNDAY where I should be at church instead of setting the record straight. I should not have to be here on a sunday trying to defend my reputation because miscommunications. There is an invention called a phone that works and people need to not rely on technology as much. Peoples patterns have a way of repeating themselves..I understand your frustation I know how you feel been there my self. The truth be known I had to suffer for weeks till my dr got off his lazy ass to finally address my issue. 1-2 days is nothing, but in reality it has not been that long. BTW I GOT A NEW PHONE OTHER DAY and I am still learning getting the setting correct.

Here is the proof
http://tnation.T-Nation.com/free_online_forum/sports_training_performance_bodybuilding_trt/what_the_another_disapointment?pageNo=0#4136816


#8

So your HPTA is intact as far as a SERM goes. The high E2 does suggest that the testes were getting high LH. An LH/FSH lab would have settled that issue. With a sort term SERM challenge, there is not enough time for the testes to recover endpoint form and function, so perhaps your TT=576 would improve over time. If LH is too high, AI might not be able to manage things, just as with high dose hCG. There is some clinical work that shows that lower doses of SERMs are effective.

Without your complete case in view, can't recommend what you should be doing.


#9

I have tried to call you many times YOU DON'T ANSWER CALLS EITHER!


#10

Thanks KSman. I will call the endo that did the test to see if I can get copies of those labs. I will them start looking into long term effects maybe doing a low dose of nolvadex. If this does give me effective lebels but they don't hol dafter I tapper off I can safely take this long term. I know everything has sides but if it's done in moderation it's possible right.
Thanks for the advice.


#11

These are the results from my clomid test before any other treatment. It looks like there could be hope in doing a restart if we can keep the estrogen down and of coarse if I'm understanding these correctly.

Total Test 524 ng/dl ref=300-1080
Free Test 107 pg/ml Ref=47-244
SHBG 29 nmol/L REF 11-80
LH 5.7 mIU/mL Ref 1.5-9.3
Estradiol 61.9 pg/mL Ref 11.6-41.2


#12

That is a shit load of estradiol!

How long were you on the SERM and what dose, before that labwork?


#13

My dose was 50mg EOD. I was on it for 30 day's. Endo wanted me to continue but I quit my own do to not even being able to walk on the treadmill without getting exhausted.


#14

Your testes were probably LH overloaded and making a lot of E2. Your T levels might have increased further over time as thirty days is not very long for the testes to recover.


#15

YA I HOPE SO WERE GOING TO BE GIVING NOLVADEX A TRY SOON. WOULD TAKING AN AI GIVE ANY BENEFIT TO AID IN RECOVERY.


#16

While a SERM can increase T, if the E2 levels get too high, the problems are the same as TRT with high estrogens.


#17

We are actually going to take this a step further and try to pin point why his e2 is high. There may be hidden underlying metabolic cause which we are trying to find to help him with this issue. I have been able to manipulate a person biochemistry in order to help manage estrodial by looking at alot of hidden factors. A restart is very tricky to begin with so I want to give oscar the best possible opportunity to get going on his own by looking at several factors which have been found to be imbalanced in the past. We are going to re evaluate thyroid adrenals, and other hormones to make sure he is 100% up to par inorder for his body to keep going on his own. All I can say is that we are taking a very comprehensive and clincal approach to getting him restarted.


#18

I recently made the switch from Adex to Aromasin and I was taking 6.25mg E3D. The symptoms I've been dealing with again were swollen lymph nodes in my neck loss of libido and severe fatigue I can't even walk what I used to run without taking breaks and I need naps all throughout the day even after 8-10 hours of rest. A gentleman on another forum uses Aromasin and suggested that I up the dose to 12.5mg which is what he takes daily do to how fast it clears the system.

Yesterday I gave it a try and today the lymph nodes are the least irritated they've been since last September. This morning was also the first time I've had morning wood in months. I'm convinced all my issues are due to me not being able to control my Estrogen. Well see a tired I am after I get a full day's rest and continue this dosage for a few day's. I wonder if there's something else that we could be missing. Maybe the next set of tests will reveal something before we come off everything and get multiple variables again as I'm dreading loosing my sex life all over again.


#19

Yes that is the purpose of nutra eval. Actually one of my patients is blogging about his process to the restart.


#20

HAN,
Can you provide the blog link?