T Nation

Protein Supps in Perspective

As I see it there are 5 times when protein supplements can be useful but each time has different requirements and therefore needs different supps.

  1. The obvious post training whey protein with high GI carbs for insulin spike eg. Surge

  2. The pre training protein (typically fast acting whey) without the carbs to make sure the body has an immediate supply of aminos post training eg. Grow! Whey

  3. Bedtime supply of both fast acting whey combined with slow acting casein for the initial nights growth phase and nights fast eg. Metabolic Drive

  4. Fast acting whey on rising to kick anabolism into gear eg. Grow! Whey along with breafast

  5. All rounder for meal replacement eg. Metabolic Drive

Any comments?

This is something rarely discussed in detail and I feel that people often take protein supps slap happy without really knowing how to manipulate them with time of day/exercise in mind.

JB writes alot on the subject of timing, it is important, anyone?

So how much of your protein do you get from meat sources?

[quote]Rich Hand wrote:
This is something rarely discussed in detail and I feel that people often take protein supps slap happy without really knowing how to manipulate them with time of day/exercise in mind.

JB writes alot on the subject of timing, it is important, anyone? [/quote]

This is actually discussed–in detail–quite often around here. Your 5 potentially useful times happens to include just about the whole day.

Truly, supps should be used mainly for convenience when real food is not available. And that includes pre-post-and before bed.

[quote]MODOK wrote:
HouseOfAtlas wrote:
So how much of your protein do you get from meat sources?

As much as absolutely possible; they aren’t called “supplements” for nothing! Unfortunately, I have to drink 2 shakes a day, plus my Surge, because of work and time, and thats where they can be valuable.

[/quote]

I meant that question to the original poster :slight_smile:

I personally have whey protein at almost every meal, yet it is very little. Its just a very small supplement to my real food. I NEVER have a meal without meat protein or eggs.

I remember I used to take in only protein powders for 90% of my calories and never gained anything. I finally switched over to eating lots of chicken breats and eggs and then I started gaining.

BTW, sorry to hijack this thread.

Food such as meat, eggs, dairy makes up about 2/3 my diets.

Im 85kg lean and only take about 10-15g of whey with breakfast and before training. Then around 25g whey post training and 10-15g whey before bed either mixed with milk or with a casein supp which Im sure is healthier than milk (real food?)

anyway. If ive had a decent protein meal pre training I would probably also miss out the pre training whey but I would like to see some figure on this ie. amino profile of blood under the 2 scenarios.

On non training days I would generally only take the whey with breakfast and whey/casein before bed. Sometimes I may just have meat before bed instead.

[quote]HouseOfAtlas wrote:
MODOK wrote:
HouseOfAtlas wrote:
So how much of your protein do you get from meat sources?

As much as absolutely possible; they aren’t called “supplements” for nothing! Unfortunately, I have to drink 2 shakes a day, plus my Surge, because of work and time, and thats where they can be valuable.

I meant that question to the original poster :slight_smile:

I personally have whey protein at almost every meal, yet it is very little. Its just a very small supplement to my real food. I NEVER have a meal without meat protein or eggs.

I remember I used to take in only protein powders for 90% of my calories and never gained anything. I finally switched over to eating lots of chicken breats and eggs and then I started gaining.

BTW, sorry to hijack this thread.
[/quote]

I have actually gone the other way; i.e. going from meat, chicken, turkey, eggs to roughly 80% of my protein coming from “supplements”.

My experience is different: I actually maintained or gained using this protein protocol.

I have found that as my schedule gets busier, the protein supplement has been a gigantic muscle saver for me.

[quote]buffd_samurai wrote:
I have actually gone the other way; i.e. going from meat, chicken, turkey, eggs to roughly 80% of my protein coming from “supplements”.

My experience is different: I actually maintained or gained using this protein protocol.

I have found that as my schedule gets busier, the protein supplement has been a gigantic muscle saver for me.
[/quote]

That’s kind of weird. Most of the natural big guys I know eat lots of meat and don’t even deal with protein shakes.

Well, I used to eat quite a bit of meat until the last few months when my schedule just got a little hectic. I won’t do the protein shake thing forever; a large amount of meat intake really is one of the main things that got me to my level in the 1st place.

And I wouldn’t consider myself natural.

[quote]buffd_samurai wrote:
Well, I used to eat quite a bit of meat until the last few months when my schedule just got a little hectic. I won’t do the protein shake thing forever; a large amount of meat intake really is one of the main things that got me to my level in the 1st place.

And I wouldn’t consider myself natural. [/quote]

Gotcha. It just seems like a lot of people that are starting out are using lots of protein supplements and don’t eat “real” meats or “real” protein and they wonder why their progress is at a standstill.

[quote]Rich Hand wrote:
As I see it there are 5 times when protein supplements can be useful but each time has different requirements and therefore needs different supps.

  1. The obvious post training whey protein with high GI carbs for insulin spike eg. Surge

  2. The pre training protein (typically fast acting whey) without the carbs to make sure the body has an immediate supply of aminos post training eg. Grow! Whey

  3. Bedtime supply of both fast acting whey combined with slow acting casein for the initial nights growth phase and nights fast eg. Metabolic Drive

  4. Fast acting whey on rising to kick anabolism into gear eg. Grow! Whey along with breafast

  5. All rounder for meal replacement eg. Metabolic Drive

Any comments?[/quote]

2 most important in my book -

  1. Time. I can quickly make a protein shake for a meal in under 5 minutes. A must for anyone pressed with time.

  2. Money. Anyone who buys their own groceries will tell you that any decent meats will quickly add up in costs. And I can only stomach so much eggs and cottage cheese. Protein shakes are cost effective and extremely cheap.

[quote]Rich Hand wrote:
As I see it there are 5 times when protein supplements can be useful but each time has different requirements and therefore needs different supps.

  1. The obvious post training whey protein with high GI carbs for insulin spike eg. Surge

  2. The pre training protein (typically fast acting whey) without the carbs to make sure the body has an immediate supply of aminos post training eg. Grow! Whey

  3. Bedtime supply of both fast acting whey combined with slow acting casein for the initial nights growth phase and nights fast eg. Metabolic Drive

  4. Fast acting whey on rising to kick anabolism into gear eg. Grow! Whey along with breafast

  5. All rounder for meal replacement eg. Metabolic Drive

Any comments?[/quote]

P+C preworkout appears to be better than PWO but the best option would be to take it before AND after I guess.
http://ajpendo.physiology.org/cgi/content/short/281/2/E197

Here’s a Barrticle that may help:
http://www.T-Nation.com/readTopic.do?id=659666

The Anabolic Index is an entire manual devoted to answering (and subsequently applying) the original question.

I don’t consider protein supplements “supplements”. The protein comes from real food and I use them with real meals to increase the protein ratio of the meal. It’s just part of a meal.

[quote]David Barr wrote:
Here’s a Barrticle that may help:
http://www.T-Nation.com/readTopic.do?id=659666

The Anabolic Index is an entire manual devoted to answering (and subsequently applying) the original question.[/quote]

David, just read the article. Get the point about the PWO drinks best being whey hydro. I am thinking then that the morning pro supp on rising also should be to act fast, if so Biotest need to make whey hydro without any carbs so that it is ideal with normal breafast. I am taking it that whey conc is fine pre workout and pre bed since time isnt as much of an issue.

[quote]bikemike wrote:
I don’t consider protein supplements “supplements”. The protein comes from real food and I use them with real meals to increase the protein ratio of the meal. It’s just part of a meal.[/quote]

Wouldn’t that be saying that multi-vitmains are just as good as getting vitamins/minerals from veggies? If so, then why would we need to eat veggies?

[quote]Rich Hand wrote:

David, just read the article. Get the point about the PWO drinks best being whey hydro. I am thinking then that the morning pro supp on rising also should be to act fast, if so Biotest need to make whey hydro without any carbs so that it is ideal with normal breafast…[/quote]

Why take the carbs out for morning when morning seems to be the only time of the day asdie from the peri training window that we need and handle the carbs that well??

Dave IMO is not saying to use the Surge to replace a real breakfast but to have Prior to. to break that night fast and skyrocket the anabolism in the AM with both the fast acting protein and the glycogen replacement. Then shortly after Eat.

[quote]Phill wrote:
Rich Hand wrote:

David, just read the article. Get the point about the PWO drinks best being whey hydro. I am thinking then that the morning pro supp on rising also should be to act fast, if so Biotest need to make whey hydro without any carbs so that it is ideal with normal breafast…

Why take the carbs out for morning when morning seems to be the only time of the day asdie from the peri training window that we need and handle the carbs that well??

Dave IMO is not saying to use the Surge to replace a real breakfast but to have Prior to. to break that night fast and skyrocket the anabolism in the AM with both the fast acting protein and the glycogen replacement. Then shortly after Eat.

[/quote]

I dont believe Dave WAS stating to use surge at breakfast hence my post.

Re high GI carbs at breakfast, for many this wouldnt be desirable since they may wish to avoid refined carbs for health reasons, avoid high GI carbs for body fat reasons (not that they will increased body fat when taken at breakfast but they may hinder fat utilisation) and their glycogen levels may well be under control anyway.

[quote]Rich Hand wrote:

I dont believe Dave WAS stating to use Surge at breakfast hence my post.

Re high GI carbs at breakfast, for many this wouldnt be desirable since they may wish to avoid refined carbs for health reasons, avoid high GI carbs for body fat reasons (not that they will increased body fat when taken at breakfast but they may hinder fat utilisation) and their glycogen levels may well be under control anyway.[/quote]

Well if your body cant handle and doesnty need 49g of carbs to refill what was lost over an 8+ hour fast and to fight off the catabolic effects without fat storage then you have probs.

  1. you may have insulin issues diabetic etc.

  2. your a 3 y/o child

  3. your not 3 y/o but carry the physique Equivalent and need not worry so much about fighting off possible BF and fat utilization and need to gain some serious mass.

Other than that if its that BIG of an issue I would say just go with something simple like Biotests unflavored whey. I mean your opting to not use what is optimal in the combo of fast acting Hydro and carbs mixed that makes that HUGE synergistic insulin effect. A few more steps down on that optimal scale isnt a huge worry then and you wont have to choke down hydro plain or argue about the need for a new product that is aimed at such a SMALL group (you) that it isnt feasible to mas produce.

Phill

Phil

Re. for those who don’t wish to have refined high GI carbs at breakfast, I wasnt meaning to leave carbs out altogther but just have the usual carbs eg. that found in museli etc.

There will, however, be people who have body fat reduction as there primary need and not muscle mass and so these people may wish to leave carbs out altogether. There is a diet on this site that wouldnt allow Surge at breakfast or even museli!