Protein and Gluconeogenesis

[quote]kravi wrote:

On the other hand, if I take 2 non-rounded scoops of whey protein (roughly 42 - 44 grams) each of which have ~3 grams of carbs (not that signicant, broccoli has much more), I need to take a bolus of around 10 units of humalog insulin just to not get sugar high. If instead I take one non-rounded (or even rounded) scoop of whey protein (say 20 - 24 grams) I only need around 2 units of insulin to avoid a blood sugar increase.

[/quote]

I see how much your insulin need increased by doubling protein scoops, but can you put into context how much a unit of insulin is by giving a few examples of familiar foods?
for example: steak dinner = 0 units, banana =?, eggs =? oatmeal =? etc

I ask because I am trying to get a feel for how much these foods raise blood sugar before the body has compensated by releasing its own insulin (which would account for the results of a blood sugar finger prick on a non diabetic person) and how much insulin is needed to compensate for the blood sugar increase resulting from consumption of these foods.

thanks!

[quote]animus wrote:

[quote]relentless2120 wrote:

While you can’t say that gluconeogenesis is the same in healthy and diabetic individuals, a healthy individual certaintly does not need to be starving or ketogenic to undergo gluconeogenesis. Someone who just worked out and did not consume carbs after and just had protein would begin gluconeogenesis, because yes while whey will cause insulin to be released, it is also causing glucagon to be released and thus signals for gluconeogenesis to occur.[/quote]

Very good point. And I hadn’t considered that. But what do you reckon a non-diabetic would experience with an equivalent dose of whey and 50-60g of dextrose or malto? I feel like that’s the norm, especially for those bulking (although, obviously, not necessarily).

Lots of interesting questions ITT.[/quote]

Yes, normal individuals can absolutely experience gluconeogenesis without being in a ketogenic state. However, to answer your question, if a normal individual is typically in a normally fed state, and consumes whey and carbs with his workout he/she will experience little to no gluconeogenesis. It is inefficient, and if the body has access to carbohydrates it is going to use that preferentially.

[quote]kravi wrote:
Ok, so it seems common knowledge in the BB community that you need a minimum of 1 gram (often said 1.5 or even more grams) of protein per pound of lean mass. How much protein can the body actually use in one day?

I ask because I am a type 1 diabetic. This gives me a strange advantage (as well as numerous disadvantages which are off subject) in that I can see when I eat more protein than I can use and my body converts the rest into glucose/glycogen.

I am also, just FYI, on a low carb diet that is very consistent. I eat at regular times, take consistent amounts of insulin, and can keep my blood sugars fairly stable between 80 - 100 24/7.

So what I’ve noticed is that if I eat a big ole steak, my blood sugars do not significantly increase, despite the 40+ grams of protein in it. Most likely this is because those 40+ grams of protein take time to be digested, time in which the body can burn through the previously available proteins and thus is able to utilize the new ones as they become available.

On the other hand, if I take 2 non-rounded scoops of whey protein (roughly 42 - 44 grams) each of which have ~3 grams of carbs (not that signicant, broccoli has much more), I need to take a bolus of around 10 units of humalog insulin just to not get sugar high. If instead I take one non-rounded (or even rounded) scoop of whey protein (say 20 - 24 grams) I only need around 2 units of insulin to avoid a blood sugar increase.

There are the factoids. My theory is that with whey protein, because it is quickly digested and made available, is able to be more easily wasted. If you ate 160 grams of dead cow for your protein, your body would probably be able to utilize most of it. Why? Because that is a HUGE amount of MOOOO. It would require multiple meals, combined with slower digestion, which means more even distribution of that protein throughout your system over the course of a 24 hour period.

Simultaneously, it is very easy to have 2 scoops of protein after a workout, along with a meal, with a snack, whatever. It is fairly obvious to me that it is easy to waste alot of the whey protein you may consume and thus your body would not get its recommended number over the course of a 24 hour period. If you, for example, ate 100 grams of moooo, squak, oink and baaaah over the course of the day, but had two 50 gram protein shakes as well, it is quite possible your body only gets 150 grams of that protein and the remaining 50 get turned into sugar/bodyfat/whatever.

I bring this up not as solid proof, but as a hypothesis based on personal, ie not to be trusted, research (because n=1 is not good science). When people say “I’ve had better results when I eat most of my protein rather than drink it” there may be some truth to the bro science. If you do (as I do) take whey protein, take smaller amounts more frequently. I have found that this does not significantly impact my blood sugars implying minimal stimulation of gluconeogenesis.

Cheers, and your thoughts are welcome.

–Me

P.S. Sorry about the wall of text there.[/quote]

Interesting theory. One thing you are not taking into account though is current research is showing the amino acid spike from whey protein is more important for activating protein synthesis than overall protein absorption.

If your goal is to see which method ends up with higher protein absorption your theory is most likely correct. If you are after maximal protein synthesis (hypertrophy) then the servings of of liquid whey protein are going to be your best bet.

Also, being a diabetic, research has shown that you are definitely at an increase for gluconeogenesis, sometimes up to a 66% increase in gluconeogenesis. I would imagine if you have stable blood sugar and insulin injections though your rate of gluconeogenesis shouldn’t be that high. I can’t think of any situation where an increase rate of gluconeogenesis is an advantage though, unless you were starving. Increased gluconeogenesis means when your body’s blood sugar starts to dip it is more likely to sacrifice your hard earned muscle for energy.

[quote]relentless2120 wrote:

[quote]animus wrote:
I’m having some trouble with your logic though.

Okay, so intake of whey = high blood sugar, requires insulin to bring it down.

Non-diabetic has insulin response to whey. Theoretically, the way we would test this is… if there is protein conversion into glucose additional to what is academically expected, then blood-sugar should be lower than normal (because the insulogenic response in the absence of additional blood-glucose would result in conversion of the pre-existing free blood-glucose). If your theory is correct, we should expect to see either no change in blood-glucose or a slight increase in a non-diabetic, correct?

Although, I still don’t think that gluconeogenesis occurs excessively in normal populations. Over the baseline (which I don’t argue against), protein conversion into glucose is protective mechanism against starvation/ketosis. That said, that could actually be an argument in your favour if the base for gluconeogenesis is the same across both populations.[/quote]

While you can’t say that gluconeogenesis is the same in healthy and diabetic individuals, a healthy individual certaintly does not need to be starving or ketogenic to undergo gluconeogenesis. Someone who just worked out and did not consume carbs after and just had protein would begin gluconeogenesis, because yes while whey will cause insulin to be released, it is also causing glucagon to be released and thus signals for gluconeogenesis to occur.[/quote]

I agree with you about not needing to be in ketogenic state to undergo gluconeogenesis, but looking at a normal person who just got done working out, without consuming carbs, would still not likely experience much for gluconeogenesis. When glucagon is released it is going to cause mobilization of glycogen, to glucose from the liver before resulting in gluconeogenesis. So unless that guy is quite depleted in his muscles and liver, there still won’t be much instance of protein to carb conversion.

Here is an excerpt from a study:
In conclusion, 1) increases in GP (glucose production) in healthy control subjects with exercise intensity can be entirely attributed to increases in net hepatic glycogenolysis. 2) In contrast, moderately controlled type 1 diabetic subjects exhibit increased rates of GP both at rest and during exercise, which can be entirely accounted for by increased gluconeogenesis.

http://jcem.endojournals.org/content/89/9/4656.short

Mmmmmmmm. A lot of good points here. Was trying to be very specific in my findings (in particular that n=1). My personal rate, as a diabetic and as a person, of gluconeogenesis is irrelevant to the discussion at hand as long as it is internally consistent. IE whether or not my liver produces up to 66% more glucose during/after intense heavy workouts than a non-diabetic, if it is consistently the same amount (which it is) it can become a neutral factor, as I know how much insulin I need to comp for it.

My understanding of protein utilization is that the body will use what it needs and the remainder gets converted to glucose for replenishment/fat storage. So if your body needs 31 grams (over the course of 4 hours) and you give it 48, 31 will be used and 17 will be converted to glucose. A bit simple, but I think that this is a more or less correct view of how it works. Please let me know if I’m off, seriously.

So what I discovered for myself is that if I take 24 grams of protein (per the label) I get zero blood sugar increase. Zero. No extra insulin needed at all. Even on non-workout days. But if I take double that I get a big sugar increase and need a corresponding amount of insulin to regulate it. My assumption is that this is because my body can’t use all 48 grams of protein, so some % of it is converted into glucose. No, I haven’t experimented to fine tune the exact amount of protein to consume post-workout, though it is intellectually tempting.

My assumption, which may be erroneous, is that my body utilizes protein more or less as efficiently as anyone else. I mean, I’m sure that everyone handles it a bit differently, but my diabetes does not play a part in how much I can use. This may be incorrect, but I don’t think so. If so, just wanted to warn people that a 50 gram dose of protein may be more than their body needs at any given moment, and to break up the protein feeds. Smaller amounts more frequently.

–Me

What you want to know about ketosis:

I started measuring my own glucose/ketone levels. While doing IF for 16 hrs/day I notice that my glucose measurements fluctuate between 80 - 110 mg/dl with the highest readings coming shortly after intense weight training and lowest right after waking or long, slow, low-impact aerobic activity. After I eat a meal they rise above 110 but will fall below 90 mg/dl within a few hours. I am still producing a lot of ketone bodies even when my blood glucose is above 110.

I would suspect that intake of protein in excess of what can be immediately used will be converted to glucose and stored in muscle tissue or is stored as fat if muscle glycogen stores are already full. In the last week since I started measuring them I have only had one real high reading above 120 mg/dl for longer than 1 hour and it was a after eating 2 pork chops with a cream sauce and brussel sprouts.

Could I have been in gluconeogenisis at this point? I suspect while this may have been the case I don’t think I was storing fat because it was after an all day fast and after having completed very intense weight lifting. I was most likely restoring liver and muscle glycogen.

I did a binge drinking experiment this last weekend to see the effects of various alcohol (this is science, after all): Each night I drank either beer, wine, or vodka and soda water. Of all of them vodka has the least impact to blood glucose and beer has the hihgest - but even after consuming 5 beverages within 2 hours my bloodsugar never spiked above 100 mg/dl. I am not sure what to make of this.

A word about the glucometer: I am not certain of their reliability or what their accuracy is because I have not made multiple measurements in one sitting. Blood concentrations can be different within given moments even when taken from the same spot. These devices use refractometry to measure light which passes through the blood and indicates the amount of glucose. While I have knowledge of many pieces of sensing equipment I don’t have enough experience to know how good these devices are…I guess they are good enough for the Diabetus.

i am T1 diabetic aswell and have an hba1c of 5.7 follow a similar diet to yourself and would be good to discuss diabetes etc. Also have some other questions i would like to ask you. Pm me your email or skype etc.

Kieran