T Nation

Proposed Cycle: 3 x 2 On/2 Off

Heres the rundown. I am 42 years young :wink: 275lb 6’1".
This will be my 3rd cycle - do to “Raw Deal”, the last one was about 2 1/2 years ago.
I have done Tren before and love it.
Main purpose is to cut bf.

1st Cycle:
TestP -100mg 1st day/50mg per day afterwards till day 10.
Total = 550mg
My active will be 12mg on day 14.

TrenA - 50mg 1st day/25mg per day afterwards till DAY 13.
Total = 350mg
My active will be 12mg on day 14.

2nd Cycle:
TestP - 150mg 1st day/75mg per day afterwards till day 10.
Total = 825mg
My active will be 17mg on day 14.

TrenA - 100mg 1st day/50mg per day afterwards till day 12.
Total = 650mg
My active will be 12mg on day 14.

3nd Cycle:
TestP - 200mg 1st day/100mg per day afterwards till DAY 9.
Total = 1000mg
My active will be 16mg on day 14.

TrenA - 150mg 1st day/75mg per day afterwards till DAY 11.
Total = 900mg
My active will be 9mg on day 14.

PCT in between cyles:
3rd week - Nolva 2 x 20mg per day
4th week - Nolva 20mg per day

I dont have any AI to use :frowning:

Any and all commets and/or question will be GREATLY APPRECIATED.
Thanks

Most would do okay with the estrogen from 700 mg/week injected testosterone but for some it would be gyno-inducing.

However it could be that you know from experience that you do fine with it.

As the “off” time is rather short, I’d rather see the Nolvadex loaded at 120 mg on the first off day (as six separate doses: I don’t know for a fact that there is an advantage to dividing the dose this way, but it could help and can’t hurt), and then 20 mg/day for the remainder of the off weeks.

When having longer off times this then letting levels build up by taking 40 mg/day is also a perfectly decent approach, but here I think it’s best to be as prompt as possible.

Thank you very much for the info, Mr Roberts. I greatly appreciate it.

I have not used test this high before and gyno is of course a concern for me. I was thinking of running Nolvadex throughout the cycles, but I am not sure on how one would do this and during the PCT. Or maybe dropping the TestP dosage?

Also, I have never ran Tren this high and am concerned with prolactin/progesterone due to the fact of my “source”.

My source does not carry Cabergoline or Pramipexole. Is there anything else that I may use instead?

If uncertain about the source, the surest thing is to make the injectable oneself from Finaplix. It is not hard to do.

Nolvadex frontloaded at 120 mg on day 1 in six separate doses (or three doses of 40 mg may be as good) and 20 mg/day thereafter should generally protect against gyno. An antiaromatase would be a suitable alternate.

Christ, i’d be an emotional wreck on 120mg of nolva on day one. I know what i’m like on just the normal dosage of SERMS, that much would turn me into a crying little baby, waaaaaaaaah!

i pissed all night frontloading 120mg of nolva. totally dried out the next day.

[quote]WyldFlower wrote:
Christ, i’d be an emotional wreck on 120mg of nolva on day one. I know what i’m like on just the normal dosage of SERMS, that much would turn me into a crying little baby, waaaaaaaaah![/quote]

I suppose you are assuming that this will produce higher levels than those one gets from ongoing 20 mg/day usage?

No. It simply gets you to the same place in one day, rather than having to wait for levels to slowly build.

No, i accept that, it’s just that i get emotional sides from SERMS really quickly. I know its the SERMS cos i get horrible acne within like 3 days of a 20mg/day dose. And i feel depressed and emotional like shit in that time too.

This was the case when i was taking serms (both with clomid and Nolva) BEFORE i started fucking around with test.

I stick to very low dose test, like 300-400mg a week, just to help in my training and stuff, so i take minimum SERMS etc. I don’t like taking large doses.

Oh, well then the problem is not the frontloading method, the problem is your personal acceptable dosage level and that the given example was relative to the more standard ongoing dosage level of 20 mg/day.

If for example your personal acceptable dosage is an ongoing 10 mg/day, then the frontload would be 60 mg on the first day to give that level promptly.

ah… i see. cheers for clearing that up.

Actually, thank you for clearing up my understanding of what you meant.

My general policy is NOT to frontload compounds that have significant likelihood of adverse side effects and also have long half-lives: who wants the side effects to drag on.

I actually had never encountered anyone bothered that much by the 20 mg/day ongoing level of Nolvadex. But clearly the risk is not zero.

I’ll try figuring a 2 day plan as an improved recommendation for those having no idea of their possible sensitivity.

The commonly used method of using 40 mg/day for some time I did calculate out once before, but don’t recall the exact result. It was something like taking 3 or 4 days to reach the ongoing 20 mg/day level, and – with typical schedules – then overshooting it.

To a rough approximation the two-day plan would be to take 3 doses worth on the first day and another 3 on the second if all still feels well, but that is not precisely right.

Once again…thank you Mr Roberts.

I assume, considering the amounts, that using an AI would be better then using Nolva during the cycles?

If so, which one would you recommend?

As an opinion I can’t prove it seems to me letrozole is the better choice. Either it or anastrozole (Arimidex) is completely capable of being effective: in fact either can readily be over-effective if used at too high a dose. But, as the unproved opinion, it seems to me that letrozole runs into fewer problems.

I know that there’s some that claim that utterly tiny amounts can utterly abolish estrogen but on repeated asking, no one has ever come up with a specific person ever reporting this happening to them. It seems to derive from a dose-response study by the Ciba-Geigy that has really weird data. No clinical study since has given the same results.

(There is an odd phenomenon that’s been noted of drug studies often turning out much better when the manufacturer does them than when outside parties later do them. I say “odd” because I doubt it is deliberate fraud. But somehow some systematic bias seems often to be introduced.)

Thank you Mr Roberts, much appreciated

Never mind…I found the answers.
Its amazing what that little search box can do!

Thanks anyways Mr Roberts, much appreciated.

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
As an opinion I can’t prove it seems to me letrozole is the better choice. Either it or anastrozole (Arimidex) is completely capable of being effective: in fact either can readily be over-effective if used at too high a dose. But, as the unproved opinion, it seems to me that letrozole runs into fewer problems.

I know that there’s some that claim that utterly tiny amounts can utterly abolish estrogen but on repeated asking, no one has ever come up with a specific person ever reporting this happening to them. It seems to derive from a dose-response study by the Ciba-Geigy that has really weird data. No clinical study since has given the same results.

(There is an odd phenomenon that’s been noted of drug studies often turning out much better when the manufacturer does them than when outside parties later do them. I say “odd” because I doubt it is deliberate fraud. But somehow some systematic bias seems often to be introduced.)
[/quote]

So, obviously, my next question about Letrozole would be at what dosage do you think is the best? 2.5? .25?

And how would you personally use it?

Mr Roberts,

I’ve been thinking, and please correct me if I’m wrong, since this is my 1st cycle in over 2 1/2 years, isnâ??t it basically the same as doing a cycle for the very 1st time?

And if this is the case, doesnâ??t make more sense to keep my AR saturated for as long as possible? Say a 12 week cycle or longer?

Also, If I do the 3 x 2wks, does one pick right back up from where you ended after the 2 wks off?

In other words, I remember my very 1st cycle (dont we all!), it was a short cycle (4 weeks) of TestP and TrenA, but it was fantastic. After my PCT, my next cycle wasnâ??t nearly as good and I regretted not doing my 1st longer.

So, if I do the 2wks on, will the next 2 wks (after 2 wks off) be the same as the 1st 2 weeks?

Iron Warrior, regular dosing for Letro seems to be around .36mg. It’s purported to be powerful stuff, and I can feel the results quickly with this dose.

edit: fixed from ml to mg