T Nation

Proper Grip for Handgun


#1

This is an article by Claude Werner that approaches finding/using the modern "thumbs forward" grip Enos and Leatham created from a standpoint of index points.

After you read the page linked, you have to click on the slide show above to get the rest of the article/pics/text. Horrible set up for publishing, but hopefully good material.

I am posting it for anyone who is unsure/still honing their grip and also for the posters and lurkers who are charged with training those who go in harms way. Using the "index points" may offer a different or more efficient path to instruction. If nothing else it is worth a read.

http://www.examiner.com/list/the-proper-grip-for-shooting-an-autoloading-pistol

Regards,

Robert A


Questions about Pistol Shooting
#2

[quote]Robert A wrote:
This is an article by Claude Werner that approaches finding/using the modern “thumbs forward” grip Enos and Leatham created from a standpoint of index points.

After you read the page linked, you have to click on the slide show above to get the rest of the article/pics/text. Horrible set up for publishing, but hopefully good material.

I am posting it for anyone who is unsure/still honing their grip and also for the posters and lurkers who are charged with training those who go in harms way. Using the “index points” may offer a different or more efficient path to instruction. If nothing else it is worth a read.

http://www.examiner.com/list/the-proper-grip-for-shooting-an-autoloading-pistol

Regards,

Robert A[/quote]

Excellent , Robert…Thanks for posting. As a side note: This is the method( or close) I have used with the Iraqis and one of the most re-occurring problems, is their habit of laying both thumbs down against the slide (Glock) which causes to slide to not lock back upon an empty magazine. Hard to get that across, had the same problem in 'stan and other middle east police units.


#3

[quote]idaho wrote:
Excellent , Robert…Thanks for posting. As a side note: This is the method( or close) I have used with the Iraqis and one of the most re-occurring problems, is their habit of laying both thumbs down against the slide (Glock) which causes to slide to not lock back upon an empty magazine. Hard to get that across, had the same problem in 'stan and other middle east police units.
[/quote]

Wow, I have heard of that being an issue with extended slide stops on Glocks, but not stock. I can’t relate, I am left/wrong handed with small hands so my issues are usually in the “Yeah, I can’t hit the slide mounted safety/decocker without breaking my firing grip” category.

If you are having a frequent enough problem getting them to grip appropriately and are up against language AND time constraints then maybe the generic thumb over thumb “crush” grip has a place. I am loath to recommend it because when ALL of the top competition shooters and most every tactical/been there done that guy teaching private sector classes I am aware of uses a variation of “thumbs forward” I consider it a clue. In fact advocating any technique inconsistent with mastery runs counter to my tendencies. Still, if getting a large group of folks up to minimal competence is the game it might have a place.

Here is an article detailing the grips that shows the thumb over thumb grip. I didn’t shoot nearly as well using it, but it is hard to screw up and is not at all platform specific. So, even if the guys you instruct get their Glocks taken and are issued Nagants, Sigma’s, or 30 year old Brownings it should still work.

As usual, stay safe.

Regards,

Robert A


#4

[quote]Robert A wrote:

[quote]idaho wrote:
Excellent , Robert…Thanks for posting. As a side note: This is the method( or close) I have used with the Iraqis and one of the most re-occurring problems, is their habit of laying both thumbs down against the slide (Glock) which causes to slide to not lock back upon an empty magazine. Hard to get that across, had the same problem in 'stan and other middle east police units.
[/quote]

Wow, I have heard of that being an issue with extended slide stops on Glocks, but not stock. I can’t relate, I am left/wrong handed with small hands so my issues are usually in the “Yeah, I can’t hit the slide mounted safety/decocker without breaking my firing grip” category.

If you are having a frequent enough problem getting them to grip appropriately and are up against language AND time constraints then maybe the generic thumb over thumb “crush” grip has a place. I am loath to recommend it because when ALL of the top competition shooters and most every tactical/been there done that guy teaching private sector classes I am aware of uses a variation of “thumbs forward” I consider it a clue. In fact advocating any technique inconsistent with mastery runs counter to my tendencies. Still, if getting a large group of folks up to minimal competence is the game it might have a place.

Here is an article detailing the grips that shows the thumb over thumb grip. I didn’t shoot nearly as well using it, but it is hard to screw up and is not at all platform specific. So, even if the guys you instruct get their Glocks taken and are issued Nagants, Sigma’s, or 30 year old Brownings it should still work.

As usual, stay safe.

Regards,

Robert A
[/quote]

Great article, I will be making copies and see if I can get it translated. I have had the pleasure of meeting Rob, a solid professional. Completely off track and as a side note: I have noticed that cultures who have a heavy habit of " talking with their hands" as most Middle Easterners do, have a harder time in learning a proper grip and especially keeping the handgun sights on target for a follow up shot …EX: double tap and one to the head drill.

Many times on the range, I have had a trainee make a decent shot and turn around and wave the gun at me in triumph. A very uncomfortable situation, to say the least. Many times they handle a handgun like they are smoking a cigarette and think nothing about it. Really tests you patience in not going postal… LoL.


#5

That feels really awkward…I guess practice makes perfect.


#6

[quote]Captnoblivious wrote:
That feels really awkward…I guess practice makes perfect.[/quote]

Yeah, I haven’t had a chance to try this at the range yet. I was trained to stack your thumbs pretty much in line. However, I pretty much suck at shooting and if that’s no longer the done thing among those who are in the business rounds where they are intended to go…

Robert (or Idaho), is this grip intended for use with the Weaver or the isosceles stance? Feels like it would be awkward to square your shoulders with one hand further ahead than the other.


#7

[quote]batman730 wrote:

[quote]Captnoblivious wrote:
That feels really awkward…I guess practice makes perfect.[/quote]

Yeah, I haven’t had a chance to try this at the range yet. I was trained to stack your thumbs pretty much in line. However, I pretty much suck at shooting and if that’s no longer the done thing among those who are in the business rounds where they are intended to go…

Robert (or Idaho), is this grip intended for use with the Weaver or the isosceles stance? Feels like it would be awkward to square your shoulders with one hand further ahead than the other.
[/quote]

Note: I was examining that method for Iraqis and some police in Bahrain. I would not use that method unless forced too.

I have trained in the Weaver stance, but, it never “fit” me at all and I abandoned it years ago. Quite frankly, the stance I used shooting is the same as I use in martial arts, left foot at a 45 degree angle from the back foot, as if you were going to throw a thigh or round kick.

so, I guess that would be a “modified isosceles” however, I rarely train “static” shooting. Shooting on the move, in an accurate control burst of fire, tracking the threat, as you move to better cover or clear a room, is usually the way it works for real. When I move, my left arm is slightly bent, the right arm slightly bent, with both elbows tucked in tight, moving by “duck walking”, “slide -gliding” or “combat waddle”, or whatever ever you want to call it, eyes tracking in 180 degrees, if a threat is established, gun is thrust toward the target, thumbs in line on the left of the slide, slightly pointed out, like you had a knife taped on the barrel, front sight center mass…fire, keep moving.

Other than learning the basics, I always “move” during any type of firearms training. drawing from the holster, stepping two steps left of right, then fire, repeat, go backwards, forwards, etc.

as a side note: in the states, if you can possibly find a “junk yard” of used cars, that have been consigned to be melted down, nothing is better practice than firing on the move toward various vehicles, taking cover, etc…of course it needs to be a safe area and with owner permission, but, it will tell you quickly about the rounds you are using, your movement, and whether your sniper (SWAT) can actually shoot through that car glass. LoL.

I have found two such locations, both in a very rural area, but, it was worth the trouble.


#8

[quote]idaho wrote:

[quote]batman730 wrote:

[quote]Captnoblivious wrote:
That feels really awkward…I guess practice makes perfect.[/quote]

Yeah, I haven’t had a chance to try this at the range yet. I was trained to stack your thumbs pretty much in line. However, I pretty much suck at shooting and if that’s no longer the done thing among those who are in the business rounds where they are intended to go…

Robert (or Idaho), is this grip intended for use with the Weaver or the isosceles stance? Feels like it would be awkward to square your shoulders with one hand further ahead than the other.
[/quote]

Note: I was examining that method for Iraqis and some police in Bahrain. I would not use that method unless forced too.

I have trained in the Weaver stance, but, it never “fit” me at all and I abandoned it years ago. Quite frankly, the stance I used shooting is the same as I use in martial arts, left foot at a 45 degree angle from the back foot, as if you were going to throw a thigh or round kick.

so, I guess that would be a “modified isosceles” however, I rarely train “static” shooting. Shooting on the move, in an accurate control burst of fire, tracking the threat, as you move to better cover or clear a room, is usually the way it works for real. When I move, my left arm is slightly bent, the right arm slightly bent, with both elbows tucked in tight, moving by “duck walking”, “slide -gliding” or “combat waddle”, or whatever ever you want to call it, eyes tracking in 180 degrees, if a threat is established, gun is thrust toward the target, thumbs in line on the left of the slide, slightly pointed out, like you had a knife taped on the barrel, front sight center mass…fire, keep moving.

Other than learning the basics, I always “move” during any type of firearms training. drawing from the holster, stepping two steps left of right, then fire, repeat, go backwards, forwards, etc.

as a side note: in the states, if you can possibly find a “junk yard” of used cars, that have been consigned to be melted down, nothing is better practice than firing on the move toward various vehicles, taking cover, etc…of course it needs to be a safe area and with owner permission, but, it will tell you quickly about the rounds you are using, your movement, and whether your sniper (SWAT) can actually shoot through that car glass. LoL.

I have found two such locations, both in a very rural area, but, it was worth the trouble.
[/quote]

Thanks Idaho.

I find that I gravitate toward a very similar stance to what you’re describing. However
Any of the instructors I’ve worked with here advocate standing with your feet, hips and shoulders square to threat and both arms punched straight out downrange, elbows tucked with full, equal pressure in both hands on the grip. As I understand it, this is an isosceles stance. It always felt awkward as ass to me to stand that square in a fight (it’s bad enough with a pistol but it’s worse while running a rifle), but I can’t very well ask a guy who knows what he’s doing to teach me how to shoot and then tell him he’s doing it “wrong” (for me at least), so I’ve always done my best to oblige.

I absolutely agree that beyond learning the basics static shooting has virtually no real world combat training value. Standing on the line taking a deep breath, presenting your firearm and delivering to the chest and one to the head and then stepping to the side, scanning, breathing and re-holstering may allow you to feel good about your marksmanship and claim you’ve done something about shooting, but it seems to bear little resemblance to an actual gunfight.

This is where it seems to me that force on force Simunition stuff can really shine. Love the junkyard idea too. Probably won’t fly anywhere in my immediate locale though, but you never know.

Stay safe.


#9

I’m going to jump in here, just to make a few comments about the “thumbs forward” grip and the isoceles stance.

When I went through our academy, it was run by a female rangemaster who was a truly outstanding competition shooter. Not 3-gun match…just pistol. I don’t know what the organization is called…IPCA, or whatever…doesn’t matter. She was very good at doing the isosceles stance thing. Ergo…that’s what we all learned. We did the thumb over thumb grip, full blown isosceles stance, squared up to the target, both toes on the line. We drilled it A LOT…and most of us actually became very good shooters because of it. Or, I should say, we became very good TARGET shooters because of it.

Now…I will say this…drilling those fundamentals over, and over, and over is what most people truly need when they are learning to shoot a handgun. There is nothing wrong, per se, with learning that way of shooting and using it as your base. Frankly, I think many people fail to COMPLETELY grasp the fundamentals of handgun shooting, wanting to move on to the more advanced stuff before they are truly ready. That’s human nature. But, speaking realistically, if a person can’t consistently put rounds on target from a solid platform, what makes them believe they are going to do it when the “running and gunning” starts?

Moving on…fast forward 15 years, and we now have a new rangemaster, who endorses a more “combat” oriented method of teaching. The grip now being taught to recruits is the “thumbs forward” method. The stance is, as Idaho describes, a modified isosceles stance. You still square up to the target. I now help teach this method, and I can say from personal experience that the new method works very well. Once the “running and gunning” portion starts, we are finding that the recruits shoot much better under stress. So, I would highly recommend the “thumbs forward” method.

The key to that grip is really “rolling” the wrist of the support hand forward. You get a lot more support hand “meat” on the gun that way. Don’t just stack the thumbs…start that way, and then roll the wrist forward. You will feel the difference immediately. The support hand thumb will be extended considerably forward of the shooting hand thumb, and parallel the frame right at or just below the slide. Once you feel it, you’ll say “ah-ha!” and wonder why you haven’t been doing it the entire time.

One last thing I’d like to address, which is the concept of “squaring up” to the target. I know one reason we teach this (and I have been taught this at many additional schools, tactical and otherwise) is because we wear body armor. From a civilian standpoint…I don’t know how to address that. The stability provided by squaring up is superior to the Weaver stance, but I can certainly see the argument for blading the body. There’s a world of difference between shooting in civvies and shooting with heavy armor and a SAPI plate between you and the bad guy.

Thoughts?


#10

[quote]mapwhap wrote:
I’m going to jump in here, just to make a few comments about the “thumbs forward” grip and the isoceles stance.

When I went through our academy, it was run by a female rangemaster who was a truly outstanding competition shooter. Not 3-gun match…just pistol. I don’t know what the organization is called…IPCA, or whatever…doesn’t matter. She was very good at doing the isosceles stance thing. Ergo…that’s what we all learned. We did the thumb over thumb grip, full blown isosceles stance, squared up to the target, both toes on the line. We drilled it A LOT…and most of us actually became very good shooters because of it. Or, I should say, we became very good TARGET shooters because of it.

Now…I will say this…drilling those fundamentals over, and over, and over is what most people truly need when they are learning to shoot a handgun. There is nothing wrong, per se, with learning that way of shooting and using it as your base. Frankly, I think many people fail to COMPLETELY grasp the fundamentals of handgun shooting, wanting to move on to the more advanced stuff before they are truly ready. That’s human nature. But, speaking realistically, if a person can’t consistently put rounds on target from a solid platform, what makes them believe they are going to do it when the “running and gunning” starts?

Moving on…fast forward 15 years, and we now have a new rangemaster, who endorses a more “combat” oriented method of teaching. The grip now being taught to recruits is the “thumbs forward” method. The stance is, as Idaho describes, a modified isosceles stance. You still square up to the target. I now help teach this method, and I can say from personal experience that the new method works very well. Once the “running and gunning” portion starts, we are finding that the recruits shoot much better under stress. So, I would highly recommend the “thumbs forward” method.

The key to that grip is really “rolling” the wrist of the support hand forward. You get a lot more support hand “meat” on the gun that way. Don’t just stack the thumbs…start that way, and then roll the wrist forward. You will feel the difference immediately. The support hand thumb will be extended considerably forward of the shooting hand thumb, and parallel the frame right at or just below the slide. Once you feel it, you’ll say “ah-ha!” and wonder why you haven’t been doing it the entire time.

One last thing I’d like to address, which is the concept of “squaring up” to the target. I know one reason we teach this (and I have been taught this at many additional schools, tactical and otherwise) is because we wear body armor. From a civilian standpoint…I don’t know how to address that. The stability provided by squaring up is superior to the Weaver stance, but I can certainly see the argument for blading the body. There’s a world of difference between shooting in civvies and shooting with heavy armor and a SAPI plate between you and the bad guy.

Thoughts? [/quote]

Excellent post and I agree with everything you said, especially about body armor, which changes a lot of dynamics in shooting. The way you position your body (for me) is even different based on the type of armor you are wearing. Having a soft vest under your uniform shirt, to wearing heavy combat armor , presents different challenges in stances. wearing heavy “outside” armor forces the butt stock of an SMG or M-4 to ride “high” for most people, including me, forcing you to keep the head higher than i like, so, I have learned to roll my head to the right lower than when shooting without one. I took the high “collar” of my old armor just for that reason. Now, I am wearing the USMC vest, which has been “cut down” to allow more movement in the shoulders and neck.

I haven’t wore soft armor in several years, its all been heavy, and I am not up to speed on current designs. Body armor aside, your comments on the shooting are right on.

as a side note: The vast majority of Middle Easterners and the limited number of former Russian satellite countries, I have experience with, have learned elementary English from watching American movies. They are absolutely devoted to Westerns and anything with Chuck Norris, Steven Seagal, Stallone, etc…even with 40 hours of classroom instruction before going to live fire, the first thing they do is try to fire from the hip, spray and pray, etc…and then look at you like you spit on the Koran, when you tell them that the movies are bullshit…LoL


#11

Good discussion. I had two experienced shooters that used modified weaver stance and crossed thumbs that shot well. They transitioned to thumbs stacked, pointing forward and isosceles stance and got better. I seem to end up with my body square to the target and my feet a little staggered. As already mentioned not a natural stance for a fighter. Thanks for the article and discussion always good info.


#12

A few thoughts…

RE: Stance/Posture

I have read/heard multiple instructors say that upper body posture/structure is VERY important. Lower body, not so much.

I have found this to be true for me, but I am not accomplished so that isn’t proof of concept.

The idea is to make sure you index and address the gun, and to let your legs take care of themselves to a large part.

RE: Lower body

Some have commented that a more squared up stance isn’t natural for those with a combatives/fighting background.

I don’t think that is exactly true. Most everyone squares up quite a bit when they are going to have to recieve/deal with sudden, jarring pressure from the front.

There really isn’t that much difference between a judoka’s stance, a karateka’s sanchin dachi, the posture muay thai fighters adopt in clinches etc.

As a whole

this

Kinda looks like this

Which isn’t terribly dissimilar to this

Even boxers who tend to blade fairly significantly square up on the inside

Now look at competition shooters

Ben Stoeger USPSA champ

Robert Vogal IDPA champ

AND…even though this is a handgun thread Kyle Lamb, definately a BTDT type.

I used to buy into the idea that blading was more “fighty”. Than I realized that while the target may be way the fuck over there, the recoil(read impact) was right at the ends of my wrists.

RE: Shooting while moving/lack of square range work in real life

My perspective here is of someone NOT payed to put themselves in harms way. Being in a line and having someone suddenly stop is hassle enough when it is at the coffee shop. Being able to keep moving in stack/dynamic entry is obviously way more important.

Still I am going to point out that starting with Jeff Cooper and Gunsight and continuing today a good many public and private sector folks have managed to save themselves with fairly “static” shooting skills. Tom Givens of RangeMaster has had an unbelievable number of his students achieve positive outcomes in shootings, and his curriculum is fairly “foundational” as opposed to advanced.

I think his general suggestions are

1.) Buy a real gun, carry it
2.) Get some training
3.) Dry fire twice a week, working on the draw
4.) Live fire once a month (frequency may be wrong here).

Sort of a program minimum that may work for anyone more in my spot/at my skill level than idaho and some of you other folks.

Just my observations…I could easily be wrong. I have been trying for healthy and I think I am the worse for it.

A question RE Hand position

I went through a phase were I kept trying to aggressivly cant my support side hand. It did not work out. I know Vogel really emphasizes it (among others), but I got zero recoil contol from it. I think hand size may have something to do with it. I have very small hands and shoot demonstrably better with a less canted support side (still with the indexes in the OP article, more like Brian Enos’s grip if that helps anyone).

Is this just an example of my failure to apply the technique appropriately, or have any of you noticed very small framed shooters needing to do things differently?

Regards,

Robert A


#13

Here is an alternative point/revolver grip tutorial from Jerry Miculek. Of course keeping in mind that Miculek is such a freak that he actually wants his gun to be more slippery.

Proof:

Technique video that covers stance/holds the crossed thumb grip as superior

Also, a very cool dry fire resource from Tom Givens’ web sight. Please be safe and no one put a round through their monitor.

http://www.rangemaster.com/publications/dry-practice-drills/103-dry-fire-drills.html

Regards,

Robert A


#14

FWIW I shoot better with the thumbs stacked in a modified isosceles similar to what Idaho stated. I find it easier to move and shoot from cover like that. If someone is shooting back I don’t want to be to squared up on the guy. At least that is the way I feel about it.


#15

[quote]Ranzo wrote:
FWIW I shoot better with the thumbs stacked in a modified isosceles similar to what Idaho stated. I find it easier to move and shoot from cover like that. If someone is shooting back I don’t want to be to squared up on the guy. At least that is the way I feel about it.[/quote]

Absolutely.

There is a reason thumbs forward is the default standard. Also idaho and DevilDogJim are in the group of people that if they tell me that I am doing something wrong with regards to lethal force I would change and THEN ask why.

Now in the interest of comedy:

[quote]Ranzo wrote:
If someone is shooting back I don’t want to be to squared up on the guy.[/quote]

Like you have to worry about that.

If the last few months have taught us anything it is that as soon as someone commits to having to get hostile with you they start coming down with gona-herpa-syphilitis or break their leg tying their shoes.

Regards,

Robert A


#16

[quote]Robert A wrote:

[quote]Ranzo wrote:
FWIW I shoot better with the thumbs stacked in a modified isosceles similar to what Idaho stated. I find it easier to move and shoot from cover like that. If someone is shooting back I don’t want to be to squared up on the guy. At least that is the way I feel about it.[/quote]

Absolutely.

There is a reason thumbs forward is the default standard. Also idaho and DevilDogJim are in the group of people that if they tell me that I am doing something wrong with regards to lethal force I would change and THEN ask why.

Now in the interest of comedy:

[quote]Ranzo wrote:
If someone is shooting back I don’t want to be to squared up on the guy.[/quote]

Like you have to worry about that.

If the last few months have taught us anything it is that as soon as someone commits to having to get hostile with you they start coming down with gona-herpa-syphilitis or break their leg tying their shoes.

Regards,

Robert A[/quote]

hahaha yeah nobody wants to get nasty with me. I will go down from a sucker punch or a stray round someday but nobody wants to fully engage with me…LOL the truth is Im a big pussy.

So a little off subject but what is everyones thoughts on dry firing. I bought a Taurus 24/7 G2 last year sometime. I have not shot it as much as I would like but the trigger pull is quite long and it changes from the first shot to the second on a new magazine. I know this is a issue with that weapon and it has a purpose in safety. So my question is, If I spend some time practicing my grip etc and dry fire this thing will the trigger become more friendly?
I really like the feel of this gun and I carry it as a self defence weapon on the job.


#17

[quote]Ranzo wrote:

[quote]Robert A wrote:

[quote]Ranzo wrote:
FWIW I shoot better with the thumbs stacked in a modified isosceles similar to what Idaho stated. I find it easier to move and shoot from cover like that. If someone is shooting back I don’t want to be to squared up on the guy. At least that is the way I feel about it.[/quote]

Absolutely.

There is a reason thumbs forward is the default standard. Also idaho and DevilDogJim are in the group of people that if they tell me that I am doing something wrong with regards to lethal force I would change and THEN ask why.

Now in the interest of comedy:

[quote]Ranzo wrote:
If someone is shooting back I don’t want to be to squared up on the guy.[/quote]

Like you have to worry about that.

If the last few months have taught us anything it is that as soon as someone commits to having to get hostile with you they start coming down with gona-herpa-syphilitis or break their leg tying their shoes.

Regards,

Robert A[/quote]

hahaha yeah nobody wants to get nasty with me. I will go down from a sucker punch or a stray round someday but nobody wants to fully engage with me…LOL the truth is Im a big pussy.

So a little off subject but what is everyones thoughts on dry firing. I bought a Taurus 24/7 G2 last year sometime. I have not shot it as much as I would like but the trigger pull is quite long and it changes from the first shot to the second on a new magazine. I know this is a issue with that weapon and it has a purpose in safety. So my question is, If I spend some time practicing my grip etc and dry fire this thing will the trigger become more friendly?
I really like the feel of this gun and I carry it as a self defence weapon on the job.[/quote]

So it’s a DA/SA? A gun smith can help you. If you’re going to dry fire it, get some snap caps.


#18

[quote]WN76 wrote:

[quote]Ranzo wrote:
So a little off subject but what is everyones thoughts on dry firing. I bought a Taurus 24/7 G2 last year sometime. I have not shot it as much as I would like but the trigger pull is quite long and it changes from the first shot to the second on a new magazine. I know this is a issue with that weapon and it has a purpose in safety. So my question is, If I spend some time practicing my grip etc and dry fire this thing will the trigger become more friendly?
I really like the feel of this gun and I carry it as a self defence weapon on the job.[/quote]

So it’s a DA/SA? A gun smith can help you. If you’re going to dry fire it, get some snap caps.
[/quote]

First,

A huge “agree” for snap caps. Most manufacturers claim they are not needed, but they are cheap insurance.

In case you aren’t sure what they are:
Snap caps are basically “dud” rounds that have a primer designed to absorb multiple firing pin strikes in a way that is safe for the gun/no more wear than a normal firing cycle. Repeatedly firing, but not having the pin hit anything can accelerate wear or cause other issues.

My preferred brand are the A-Zoom aluminium rounds with the polymer “primer”.

Listen to WN76 and get some. They are available on Brownells, Midway, or Amazon.com. If you are only ordering snap caps I would go with Amazon to keep from getting hit with the high shipping and handling fees (This comes from someone who ordered just a buffer detent from Midway and bought a 40 cent part for 12 bucks or so).

http://www.azoomsnapcaps.com/home/

RE Gunsmith

Again WN76 is right, although I haven’t heard of too many smiths doing work on Taurus guns. MIM parts and surface hardening can make a lot of the traditional polishing work difficult (take off too much metal and the part is ruined).

I am personally not a huge fan of Taurus firearms because of my personal experiences with them, and I would suggest “trading up” with the gunsmith money rather than sinking it into a Taurus. However, if your personal gun is reliable and you are already invested in the platform (mags, holsters, sights, etc.) than this may not be good advice.

RE Dry Fire

I am a huge fan. Dry fire may not be as important if someone else is buying all your training ammo and you are in the 10,000 rounds a year club but for most of us that isn’t the case. Hell, I am hearing that LEO training budgets are getting cut (a thought that absolutely fills me with bile).

Current ammo availability and prices makes it even more important that proficiency be maintained between range trips, because burning ammo to get “back in the groove” is expensive or maybe not even feasible.

Dry fire will also have the advantage of “breaking in” the trigger while getting you used to it.

Regards,

Robert A


#19

Some Dry fire drills to try.

I have done/do all of these, they may help. If one of the actual shooters/instructors wants to weigh in I would appreciate it. If idaho disagrees with any of this he should be considered the expert. I’m writing as an amateur without any real degree of skill.

Classic Coin or Case on the Slide or Front Sight

Goal: Trigger Control (a.k.a. the single most important thing)

Procedure:

Initial/safety
-Confirm gun and magazine are clear
-Confirm no live ammo is in room, frisk pockets/mag holders
-Confirm backstop/target is “safe” and that there is no risk of rounds passing through and hitting someone
-Load gun with snap cap(s), press check to visually confirm snap cap (red A-zoom vs brass or nickel case)

Drill

-Place either a coin or a spent case on the slide
-Extend Firearm to firing position
-Work trigger straight to rear
The goal is that the coin or spent case should stay put throughout the firing process. If it jumps or slides a little, but stays on that is acceptable. If it falls and hits the floor that is a “fail”.
-Repeat
If your weapon has second strike capability than you can simply pull the trigger again. This adds the “how many trigger pulls can I get before it drops?” component. If you are dealing with a striker fired gun than you will have to work the slide and reset prior to each trigger pull.

Notes:
This drill can be done with either a one hand, or two hand grip on the weapon. Don’t neglect weak hand only work.

I have noticed using snap caps makes this quite a bit easier with my glock. The “Krunk…Sproong” trigger/striker hit seems to jump the case off of the front sight without one.

Trigger control is very important and this is a classic.

Brian Enos’s Index/“feel” Drill"

Goal: Master indexing the gun

Procedure:

Initial/safety
-Confirm gun and magazine are clear
-Confirm no live ammo is in room, frisk pockets/mag holders
-Confirm backstop/target is “safe” and that there is no risk of rounds passing through and hitting someone
-Load gun with snap cap(s), press check to visually confirm snap cap (red A-zoom vs brass or nickel case)

Drill

Level 1:
-Start with your weapon in your two handed firing grip and “sight in” on blank wall.
-Confirm sight alignment and lower weapon to “low ready position”, close your eyes
-Raise your gun to firing position, open your eyes, are the sights aligned?
-Repeat

Level 2:
-Same as above, except instead of “low ready” you complety remove your weak side hand. So you are basically going from count 2 in the draw.
Sometimes I will make this a pec index/retention position, but that may be me fucking up Enos’s drill

Level 3:
-Same as 1 except “low ready” becomes holstered. So you are drawing with your eyes closed and confirming sight alignment.
I am pretty happy if I have the front post anywhere in the rear notch. Sometimes it is pretty perfect, but only sometimes.

Level 4
-Sight in on wall
-Close eyes, pivot 15 degrees or so, right or left
-Open eyes and confirm alignment
I think Enos has increasing levels where the pivot gets more extreme and eventually you are doing footwork as well. I am not there yet. Sort of a humbling realization as to just how dialed in great shooters are

Level 5 ?
-I think Enos recommends actually being able to close focus on a specific target, close your eyes, draw, fire, and then confirm alignment. I am so very not there yet.

Notes: No you aren’t actually pulling the trigger here, but it is basically the shootin’ irons version of kyudo and I like this shit. Gi Fag card in full effect.

Timed Draws

Goal: Practice Drawing, indexing, aiming, trigger control, all under time constraints

Procedure:

Initial/safety
-Confirm gun and magazine are clear
-Confirm no live ammo is in room, frisk pockets/mag holders
-Confirm backstop/target is “safe” and that there is no risk of rounds passing through and hitting someone
-Load gun with snap cap(s), press check to visually confirm snap cap (red A-zoom vs brass or nickel case)

Drill

-You will need a “target” I recommend and 8 inch paper plate for “body”/high probability targets and index cards for low probability. If you are in a small room, smaller targets adjust for distances.
-You will need a timer capable of holding par times in increments of at least .2 seconds. If you don’t have a real shot timer than there are several Smart Phone apps that will give you something to work with. I believe Taurus and Surefire have them. I have a dumb phone and a Pocket Pro II so I don’t know.
-Set the buzzer for random delay, set the par time to something generous. If you have never done any draw and fire work than I would say at least 3 seconds from real, honest to god, concealment or Level III retention holster. If you are using an open top holster and no concealment make it 2.25 seconds.
-At the buzzer, draw, aim, fire
-Repeat. When you are guaranteed to beat your par time either add difficulty(smaller target, range, having to move or change position, etc.), or decrease the time.
[i]Please remember par is the beginning of the beep, not the end. A lot of folks like to spot themselves the length of the end buzzer.

What’s good? Just shoot for better than you are. Time limits are kind of arbitrary for dry fire. However I know several folks who hold that you need to be able to make body shot hits, at seven yards, from concealment or level III, in under 1.5 seconds. So the fact I cannot do it dry fire is motivation.
[/i]

Tom Givens resources
You can also play with the targets/drills on the Tom Givens’ sight I linked to earlier in this thread.

Hope some of this helps. I am not the expert with any of this material on these boards. There are a few here who could easily wear that title.

If there is more interest in shooting/gun related stuff or even edged weapons material past the typical I will try to post more of it when it comes to mind. I noticed this thread, the surviving edged weapons thread, and even the old trick shooting thread have brought out some posters we don’t usually see in the boxing vs BJJ or UFC gossip threads.

Regards,

Robert A


#20

HMM I will look into snap caps. I know lots of people have different opinions on dry firing. Marines dry fire their weapons all the time for range practice. I have dry fired my Taurus numerous times as well but it would be nice to get a clap or something to help coordinate with and insure nothing is happening to the weapon. Thanks guys