T Nation

Prop/Ace Spring Cut Cycle


#1

Weeks 1-8: test prop 125mg EOD
Weeks 1-6: tren ace 75mg EOD
Weeks 2-mid 8th: hCG 500iu 2x per week
Vit B6 or P-5-P at 200mg ED (maybe more if I feel the need) weeks:1-7

PCT:
Torem: 120/90/90/60/60/60
Aromasin:10/5/5/5/5eod

Caber on hand. Any thoughts?


#2

Theres a thread called READ BEFORE POSTING at the top of the page. You clearly ignored it. It's in your best interest to NOT ignore it.

Daily injections will keep blood levels more stable. This is especially true for tren. Test prop can be done EOD, but it isn't optimal.

Estrogen control on cycle?


#3

Thanks for your response. Sorry about that. I'm 21. I've been lifting for 6 years with a solid diet and routine for about 4 of them. I have one Test E cycle under my belt at 500mg for 10 weeks followed by a nolva 20/20/20/10/10 + clomid 50/50/50(first 3 weeks) PCT. I had aromasin on hand for that cycle, but the need didn't arise for it.
I'll have aromasin on hand for this cycle as well in case estrogen control is needed.

My current lifts are:
Bench 315x6-7 never really do 1RM
Squat: 365x6-7
Dead: 405x3


#4

What daily dose of each compound would you recommend?


#5

Cutting each dose in half would be fine. Same weekly total. I recommend using insulin syringes for daily injections. They're easier and more comfortable to use if your bodyfat is low enough to use a .5" needle.


#6

Thanks. I'm probably going to be around 13%bf by the time the cycle rolls around. I don't mind 23g 1in needles, and have a stockpile so I might stick with those, but I'll definitely look into using insulin needles.


#7

I use 25g when doing E3D injections. Insulin needles make a world of a difference. There is virtually no discomfort at all. If you don't want to buy 56 insulin needles for the whole cycle go to the drug store and get a few. Try them out and see if you like it.


#8

I will thanks for your help.


#9

You need an AI whether you think the 'need arises for it' or not. Test will aromatize, therefore you need an AI.

You would know this if you had read the stickies.

http://tnation.tmuscle.com/free_online_forum/sports_training_performance_bodybuilding_gear/serm_and_ai_sticky


#10

I would say need is a strong word. If I was running more than 500mg it would definitely be much more of a concern, but I felt great not running one on my last cycle. As long as gyno isn't flaring up I don't see the need for it. If anything the estrogen provides benefits. Of course I'll have aromasin on hand, but I won't be running it unless I feel the need for it.


#11

Keeping E2 in the low-normal range is best.

What benefits does elevated estrogen provide? You are running 434mg of T ester per week. Your E2 levels will rise. Maybe not enough to cause gyno in your body but it will rise above the 'low-normal' range.

It is always wise to use an AI when using any aromatizing compound. This really can't be debated. It's your body and your choice but most of us know that the benefits of using an AI on cycle outweigh the cost of using one.


#12

I wouldn't have typed the word 'need' if that wasn't the word I wanted to use.

You're running just slightly less than 500mg a week.

Do what you want though, it doesn't sound like you're going to listen to us.

This line right here shows us that you haven't done enough research.


#13

Well I'm graduating this spring with a degree in biochemistry and molecular biology, and have done countless hours of research on all types of steroids and their proper use so I would appreciate you not piling on the sarcasm and snide remarks. What may be parroted here is not always the definitive and unquestionably correct answer. Estrogen has many aspects I consider to be benefits. Such as water retention, weight gain, excellent joint support, and besides bloat on prop cycles is normally considered much less prevalent than e or c. I'll look into using it on cycle further, but have done plenty of research on the subject, and have been advised by many experienced users I trust that on hand is a better approach.


#14

Hmmm any research I have seen on supraphysiological levels of estrogen have been negative. Can you post any?

I believe this has to do with dose fluctuation and nothing to do with the specific ester.


#15

Well Mr. Biochemist, why exactly did you come online to ask us questions then?

There are multiple users on this board who I myself would trust much sooner than I would trust a guy with a Doctorate who had done no research on AAS.

I also think it is quite silly for you to think everyone here only frequents these forums, and not any other AAS boards or medical journals.

I'd love to see the studies that say high estrogen (read: >30 pg/mL) is a good thing. No one on here is telling you to run your E2 levels into the ground.

Also, where are your 'experienced users' getting their information from? Other 'bros' at the gym? I myself prefer to use studies and blood test (as there is no way to accurately 'guess' where your E2 levels are.)


#16

I won;t get wrapped up in the argument...but there are many guys out there that do agree with the OP, most pros will not touch an AI or serm in the offseason due to the very reasons he speaks of. T-Nation really IS NOT the end all of bodybuilding science...especially in the sense of the competitive end of the sport. Personally i have NEVER used an AI even when using large doses...maybe i am just lucky i donlt know but there are MANY pros that will agree with me.

My basic beleif is much the same as the OP...if you do not have issues don;t take one...Your growth rate WILL BE faster wihtout an AI...i have seen this hundreds of times over the years. like i said not wanting to argue but i am certainly not the new guy and i know for a fact that alot of guys slow down their progress from overuse of AI's and serms. there is a great thread on this very topic on another board that caters to professional BB...like here and everywhere there are people on both sides of the issue...point being...don;t just attack a guy because his beliefs are different than yours...crap he might be right.


#17

now that being said your "appearance" year round will be better with e2 in optimal range...but your rate of growth will be slower ... actually this is exactly why estrogen is present in the cattle implant synovex...rapid weight gain


#18

I am not sure if my post was taken as attacking, but I was actually asking. Joint support is actually a very important issue to me right now lol so if there is evidence that high levels of E are beneficial I would be very interested in reading it.

Morepain, would your advice be to run a cycle and actually just keep an AI "on hand" in case gyno starts popping up?


#19

to be honest i NEVER take one...but like i said i don;t want to start an internet argument...that concept always annoyed me...i mean really, i don;t have to agree with everything someone says to be intereted in their opinions. its almost like people have an internet "idea blockage" if any new information comes in that they don't agree with they just automatically disregard it as crap. I hope thats not how they act in real life becasue to be that way will cause you to miss out on alot of lifes learning opportunites.


#20

Hey MP

You'd have to agree that when someone's goal is to drop fat it would be a good idea to run an AI. Simply keeping the bloat down will have psychological benefits while 'cutting', I think.

Advice for aspiring pro bodybuilders and advice for the dedicated gym goer looking for drastic improvement should be different. Again that is simply my opinion.

I know that you weren't outright recommending this guy not use an AI. I understand that you're just presenting another point of view that is not to be applied in every single situation. Just so we're on the same page.