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Prolotherapy - Any Experience Good or Bad?


#41

Muscles offer dynamic stabilization. Ligaments offer passive stabilization. Prolotherapy is a series of injections into the ligament, right where it meets the bone. Over time, the ligament will become thicker and shorter as it dehydrates and crosslinks. This will improve the joint’s stability. Without ligaments, your muscles are worthless - their contraction would not produce movement.

In the case of tendonosis, there is an incomplete healing process, usually without any inflammation, and the tendon degenerates. Prolotherapy is meant to reinitiate the healing process, so it may carry out to completion. The concept of dry needling is the same, except it uses a needle to cause micro damage to the tendon instead of a proliferative solution, which would cause chemical damage. Let me know if you have any questions.


#42

Has prolotherapy made advancements since in the 5 years this thread has existed? 2 pages is not a lot of people.


#43

I don’t think traditional prolotherapy has made any progress in the last few decades. It’s simple and if properly performed on the right patient, it is effective. All of the new prolotherapy-esque treatments you’re seeing these days rely on PRP or stem cells. The old glucose, P2G, or sodium morrhuate treatment works just fine, but people need to be realistic and understand what is being done. Prolotherapy is just a physical/chemical injury meant to kickstart your body into healing and lay down new collagen - that’s it.


#44

Does new collegen mean it can rebuild the meniscus?


#45

[quote]bpbob wrote:

[quote]FattyFat wrote:
@BackInAction, GluteusGigantis

Take the following for what it is: an opinion based on my own experience

Just imagine you’ve all but exhausted conservative treatments, have been to lots of physicans (all of them recommended to you, btw) and no one was able to really help you. Almost a year has gone by without any improvement on your condition.
Then, you get prolotherapy. And after a while your condition starts to improve. By a lot.

I’ve never heard/read about the placebo effect being effective enough to restabilise a joint.

Glad it worked for you, creeep.

[/quote]
How would prolo injections “stabilize” a joint? Sorry but you sound like you are either ignorant or have been lied to. Joint stability comes from your muscles not from blood being injected into your tendons.[/quote]

I don’t know where that came from.
I’d advise you to brush up your knowledge on anatomy and biomechanics.
You’ll thank me, later.


#46

[quote]arcadiafades wrote:
It’s SIMPLE and if PROPERLY performed on the RIGHT patient, it is effective. [/quote]
This.


#47

[quote]Airtruth wrote:
Does new collegen mean it can rebuild the meniscus?
[/quote]
Fibrocartilage responds some to prolotherapy (see the aforementioned caveat: properly performed prolotherapy on the right patient).

My TFCC (fibrocartilage, amongst other material) responded fairly well to prolotherapy.

AFAIK, the meniscus consists of fibrocartilage.


#48

Part of the meniscus along its border blends into the connective tissue of the joint capsule/ligament. The blood supply in the connective tissue allows the edge of the meniscus to heal a lot better than the part located more centrally in the joint. Prolotherapy is, in my opinion, not a great option for large tears located inside the joint.

PRP and stem cell therapies are still being investigated, and are usually cost prohibitive. I’m a fan of prolotherapy, (I coauthored my own case study which you can find on PubMed by searching for “micro perforation prolotherapy”) but it’s usefulness is limited. Once again, it needs to be properly performed in a carefully selected patient. It helped decrease ligament laxity in my case, but did nothing to repair the intraarticular disc, which is the equivalent of the meniscus in the knee.

Of course, this is anecdotal and I’m not a doctor, so it would be best to talk to your doctor about your options.


#49

[quote]arcadiafades wrote:
Part of the meniscus along its border blends into the connective tissue of the joint capsule/ligament. The blood supply in the connective tissue allows the edge of the meniscus to heal a lot better than the part located more centrally in the joint. Prolotherapy is, in my opinion, not a great option for large tears located inside the joint.

PRP and stem cell therapies are still being investigated, and are usually cost prohibitive. I’m a fan of prolotherapy, (I coauthored my own case study which you can find on PubMed by searching for “micro perforation prolotherapy”) but it’s usefulness is limited. Once again, it needs to be properly performed in a carefully selected patient. It helped decrease ligament laxity in my case, but did nothing to repair the intraarticular disc, which is the equivalent of the meniscus in the knee.

Of course, this is anecdotal and I’m not a doctor, so it would be best to talk to your doctor about your options. [/quote]

Wow, I can’t believe I discovered you’re the patient in that article haha. I got slammed by a wave while on vacation last July and suffered a class I ac joint sprain in my left shoulder as diagnosed by X-ray and MRI. It wasn’t particularly painful and I was back to lifting weights within about 3 weeks, but I still have a very slight bump over the joint either from some laxidity in the ligaments or residual inflammation that hasn’t gone away yet and some clicking/popping in the joint with certain movements. For example if I perform a lateral raise motion in with my arm in roughly the scapular plane I get a repeatable click in that shoulder.

During the course of my research I’ve talked to many people who have suffered this injury including Eric Lilliebridge who suggested I get a PRP injection as this was effective for him. I also came across your article on pub med and really liked the science behind it because it seems like microperforation type prolotherapy has been effectively used in knee ligament surgeries for a while. From my reading it seems this would be a cheaper and possibly more effective alternative to a stem cell or prp treatment.

I was worried about Alvin Stein’s poor reviews online, but actually talking to you, the person from that study, makes me feel better. I tried to read the links posted to your website from back in 2010 on this thread, but they no longer work. I’m located in Texas, do you happen to know of anyone who offers this type of therapy out this way?


#50

Arcadiafades, could you please let me know if Alvin Stein is who you saw? Do you know of anyone good who is practicing this type of prolotherapy in texas?


#51

Hey man, after 2 dislocations on my knee the thing has felt unstable for over 5 years now.
I have chronic inflammation of the joint and I’ve been considering prolo.
I’ve been to three different physical therapists, and a chiropractor.
I planned on doing graston technique soon because it’s covered by insurance and prolo isn’t.
In my area prolo ranges from 400 to 600 a session…(New York area…)
I’m kind of at a loss right now, been dealing with knee instability and chronic inflammation for half a decade.
I read all the time that prolo helps people with joint issues, do you think it would be worth getting a consultation?


#52

Does anyone know any good prolo doctors in Long Island, New York?
Or NYC?
They all charge about 400 per session/per joint…
I’m about to fly out to another state for 2 months and get it done elsewhere at this point.
I’ve had knee instability since about 5 years ago. I dislocated my left knee twice, ever since then the joint basically falls out of place.
I have to manually crack it back in by stretching my quads and hip flexors constantly throughout the day.

I have chronic inflammation, I got an MRI last year and the knee doctor told me all he saw was a little bit of inflammation…he said he didn’t see anything wrong with the joint itself…

I know for sure there’s some sort of micro-tears going on, the joint just isn’t stable.

I’ve seen numerous physical therapists to no avail, they’re all puzzles as to why they can’t fix me.

I’ve been training my vastus medialis and my glute medius/maximus and hip flexors and trying to correct the little bit of flat foot I have going on in my foot. I notice I over pronate my ankle a little bit…

Nothing really solves the issue though, after years of foam rolling religiously and following everything I’ve been told to do by professionals.

Any input is greatly appreciated, not sure what the next step is…
Maybe Graston Technique to loosen up the muscles around the lateral side of the knee? (But how is that going to fix the issue? If the muscles are tight to compensate for ligament laxity they’re just going to get tight again right?)

Prolo sounds like my only option, I refuse to get a lateral release. Those fuckers aren’t cutting me open.


#53

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but if you did truly dislocate your knee you’ve almost certainly torn ligaments. This would be beyond the scope of what prolotherapy is capable of helping with.

“The exact amount of ligamentous damage necessary to dislocate the knee is disputed.17 Although the conventional thinking is that both cruciate ligaments and at least 1 collateral ligament must be torn in order for the knee to dislocate,11,13,19 some patients who have suffered a knee dislocation still have 1 cruciate intact.2,7,15,21,22,31 It is advisable to treat any patient presenting with significant valgus or varus instability in full extension,2 complete disruption of 2 or more ligaments,3,8,26 or exaggerated hyperextension (indicative of combined cruciate disruption1) as a possible knee dislocation.”


#54

I responded to your other thread, but I’d like to address the concerns about Dr. Alvin Stein. I never thought I would ever be even close to normal again after my SCJ injuries. The surgeons at the Mayo Clinic told me I could look forward to arthritis making the joint a little less mobile in the future, and maybe it would stabilize with bone spurs.

He has some poor reviews because he deals with the patients who have been turned down by everyone else as hopeless causes. We’re talking chronic pain and mystery illnesses. I remember I shadowed him one time and I was shocked at how one patient acted; some of those patients are head cases. He’s an old school doctor from Chicago, and that reflects in his personality, but he was competent and skilled, and that’s what I care about when selecting a doctor.

I do not know of any prolotherapists in Texas off the top of my head, but you can google it and find one I’m sure. Keep in mind not all prolotherapists are equally skilled - some of them downright suck. The links don’t work because the website hosting expired around the time I entered medical school and I was too busy to even notice. It’s a shame because I had a ton of content on that site, and it’s all gone now.


#55

I understand the gravity of a dislocation, but according to my MRI’s that have been checked by a few doctors at this point.

I have no true ligament damage that can be seen(I understand that MRI’s are not perfect.)

The ligaments seem to fine, my main orthopedist even went as far as saying my knees look totally healthy…

But I still have a tracking problem, it could totally just be nervous system/muscular related…

I’ve been trying everything though and I can’t seem to get them to track properly.

I’m going to an ART specialist tomorrow evening to discuss with him and see what he thinks. Maybe a serious trigger point session and some fascia release with corrective exercises can fix this.

I’ll keep you guys updated for anyone that is having a similar issue to me.

I’m sure someone’s out there reading this crap hoping to find some god send of a solution.


#56

How do you go from supposedly dislocating your knee to a simple tracking problem?


#57

Hello, I read your study last year after my r sc joint subluxed. Did your subclavius and pec major lock up after it happened? If so, did the muscles fully release after your SC joint became stable causing your posture to become normal? My L sc joint is a little out of place as well; the muscles on both sides are locked up.

Thank you very much


#58

I just want to mbaur know that there is a prolotherapy doctor in havertown pa which is only a 2 hour drive from nyc. I drive about an hour to see him from philly. I have been seeing him for the past 3 months for a major back injury i sustained deadlifting. I went from not being able to stand for longer then 20 minutes to now working 12 hour shifts on my feet bartending. I did months of rehab, gratston technique, seen a few specialist, lots of pain killers with only little improvements. The treatment knocked my pain down by a good 50 percent. His name is Dr. Eric Lake at premier orthopedics in havertown, just an all around great doc. He charges $200 and does the injections in most joints.


#59

Hey arcadiafades, we e-mailed back and forth a couple years ago regarding the same SCJ issue, which never completely healed, but got a lot better. I’ve also used prolotherapy on my thoracic spine with some very good results (back didn’t heal for years prior to PRP+prolo). What’s your opinion on combining prolotherapy with HGH peptides like GHRP-6, CJC-1295, MGF, etc.

There’s studies showing increased collagen synthesis with these. Even some aas like EQ and Deca hydrate connective tissue and speed up healing. For me, adding peptides to my healing stacks for 10 days post treatment sped up the process 10 fold.


#60

I have a pretty serious sternoclavicular problem from a mountain bike face plant that happened four years ago. I have been doing serious physical therapy and my pt is telling me joint stabilization with prolo is the only way to go.

I’m reading this thread and it seems like I would be a good candidate. I’ve read the research on this injury and talked to a few orthos, but clinical outcomes seem quite mixed (and you have to commit to the course completely).

I’d really like to talk to anyone in this thread who could advise me. I’m really anxious about prolo and want to make sure to see the very best doc I can as it seems that is the defining feature in the better outcomes.

Anyone feel like dropping some advice?