T Nation

Prolactin .vs. Progesterone...and Estrogen???

Pharma
#1

So through researching different drugs it seems that certain drugs side effects come from either prolactin (tren) progesterone (anadrol), or estrogen (test, dbol, etc).

I’ve read that an AI is best for combatting Estrogen on cycle, caber or bromo, and or b-6 is best for combatting prolactin, and winni can be used to combat progesterone.

I’ve also read that if you control the Estrogen that controlling the other two doesn’t matter, and then read that it does and even if Estrogen is controlled that gyno, etc can still arise.

I’m researching stuff but finding mixed info, a lot of it is probably just preference. My questions are what is the difference between the three (estro,prog,prolactin) and how are they controlled? If I left a proper way of combatting these things out please shoot me a link to a read or an answer :stuck_out_tongue:

So if ever taking anadrol, is it best to always take winni with it just to prevent sides? I understand the idea behind an AI with an aromatizing compound. I don’t fully understand the prolactin side of things, but I’ve gotten it through my head that if anybody runs a 19-nor that caber or bromo must be ran alongside.

Progesterone is still confusing too…what exactly is the difference between progesterone and prolactin. I know from a medical point that prolactin causes secretion of milk from the mammary glands and that progesterone is mainly dealt with a woman’s natural cycle. So what is up when it gets in a mans body? lol

Also it seems like winni and proviron can be used for the same reasons regaurding shbg if i’m correct. So could one replace the other in any cycle? or are the two ever ran together?

Sorry if this has been covered, I’ve read a few things about it, but none of it has fully “clicked” yet :stuck_out_tongue:

Thanks guys.

Gerdy

#2

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#3

Yup… i have read that Drol is kinda an unknown in the why it can give such serious estrogenic sides - whether it is through directly activating the estrogen receptor or progesterone… all i know is that 20mg of nolva taken with the drol makes a difference in the occurance of gyno sides when compared to no tamoxifen (but letro, proviron and winstrol all used).

As for progestin/progesterone etc. Gerdy, read this one… it is in my favourites as i am fascinated with the roles of those 3 hormones myself.

http://library.med.utah.edu/kw/human_reprod/lectures/prolactin/

I know that progesterone has a job and effects very similar to estrogen, and yes - it is a big player in women as it has alot of roles during pregnancy. It is the increase of progesterone that is one of the reasons fat and breast size increase when a woman becomes pregnant. ONE of the reasons.
I think that it agonizes estrogen to ‘potentate’ estrogenic effects. (excuse my limited vocabulary)

Prolactin as Altered said is related to the satisfaction after sex (in men) and is why it is such a potent libido killer - and is the main reason that caber is such a libido enhancer!
It is this that leads me to suspect that one of the main reasons 19-Nortestosterone steroids are that much more suppressive, or libido crushing at least, is down to the prolactin activity.
Even if the suppression of the HPTA isnt much more harsh. I know that a single dose of 100mg of Nandrolone caused full HPTA shutdown within 1 week and took 3 weeks to recover from. This was a mix of one long and one short ester. I dont think test is quite as suppressive - BUT, in the doses bodybuilders use both drugs cause 1005 suppression and shutdown, so the difference is kinda academic.

I believe that all 3 are needed for lactation - and as with all things in this game, it is genetics that dictate how liable one is to get this problem. ie. Naturally high levels of one of the hormones or naturally sensitive receptors to one of the hormones or some other factor i havent comprehended.

I think (again, as Altered stated) that a good dose of an AI should be all that is needed to sort out most of the sides from progesterone/prolactin… and without estrogen there will be no lactation nor gyno… I personally choose letrozole, and i think in this case it would be even more sensible as there are some studies to suggest that it has anti-prog. properties.
Plus libido isnt affected at dosages of less than 0.25mg (1/10th of a 2.5mg tablet! Value for money or what?)

Back to the drol issue - i have wondered if it may stimulate BOTH the progesterone and estrogen receptors to a degree…? Or if it somehow stimulates the progesterone receptor in SOME people due to a particular hormonal environment or some other unknown factor… Just a thought - no basis in reality of course!

I cannot comment on tren - never having used it Gerdy, but i have used Nandrolone extensively, and have never had a problem with prog. sides. And seeing as deca aromatizes to a degree too, the progesterogenic and estrogenic activity combined should readily cause gyno in me - as i have a small (managed) case already.
But it doesnt. :confused:

I personally would not have caber on hand if i ran a 19-nor steroid again… i think it is overkill on cycle, as a good dose of AI should sort the weakest link. (plus with nolva on hand and ALWAYS using proviron…)
I would however think about caber for PCT - i think that its anti-prolactin effect could be just what the doctor ordered for deca(/tren) shutdown/inhib. It is something i think i may try one day.

*…Just want to point out… this is just a post of what i think i know about these hormones - it isnt gospel and i am not infallable. It is a multi-way discussion, not a lecture.
I feel that some people are a little misguided as to the purpose of this forum and the roles of the posters.
No-one here is all knowing or all-seeing, and i feel that sometimes people forget that fact, along with forgetting that none of us are experts in this field (although there are 1 or 2 who are very close) - we are all just trying to learn, enjoy, bodybuild, powerlift and socialize… and build some big fuck-off muscles along the way (with the odd smattering of pussy too!).

I am just a bloke talking to like-minded individuals about shit we are interested in… thats all*

JJ

#4

Brook - Do you think from your personal experience that nolv is better at controlling anadrol gyno than winstrol?

#5

I really am not qualified to say mate.

I am on my first run with drol and i am using winny with every dose.

I can tell you what i have learned…

Base: Drol @ 50mg/day with 25mg winny/d, 50mg proviron/d, 750mg week of test plus 600mg eq a week:

Variables: Nolvadex - 0mg, 20mg and 40mg.
Letro - 0.1mg, 0.15mg and 0.25mg

best gyno prevention was with 20mg(+) of nolvadex and 100mcg of letro(less than 0.125mg).
Worst (relatively speaking) gyno prevention was with zero nolvadex and 125mcg letro.

More than 150mcg letro and libido begins to suffer.

At 40mg of nolva there is slight swelling of gyno lumps - which i always seem to notice with tamoxifen actually, it is as though it is attached to the receptor and temporarily aggrevating the site. My personal gyno increases and decreases over the day… smaller in the morning and more inflamed at night… i assume this is due to the natural wave of my own endocrine system, and is the reason i dose nolva in the am with the drol, proviron and winstrol, and the letro at night-time.

Nolvadex is contra-indicated/not recommended for use with progestins… but i am undecided about drol… i can honestly say that when i stopped using it, i had more trouble with my gyno (it is actually a really useful way for me to monitor the effectiveness of my anti estrogenic drugs! Any mishaps and a correction in dose of whatever drug, reduces the problem back to minimal proportions again…
[for the record, Nitrazepam (Mogadon) used to reduce my gyno lumps to virtually nothing EVERYTIME i used it… not coincidentally]

JJ

#6

Interesting… I have used anadrol before and got a slight case of gyno from it. I was ill advised at the time and was only using proviron for estrogen control while running 750mg/week test and 300 mg/week deca. For my next cycle I was planning on using winstrol at half the dose of the drol (not sure yet either 100 or 50/day). I always have nolv on hand so it would be easy to throw it in if gyno comes about.

But my duration of anadrol use will be short and in the worst case scenario I will just stop my drol use early. Of course I will be using adex for estrogen control and have bromo on hand in case the deca gets my prolactin levels too high.

Good thread… this topic is a source of great misunderstanding.

#7

Please correct me if I am wrong, and this isn’t a thread jack Gerdy I’m merely trying to expand my knowledge like you, the estrogenic effects from anadrol are not caused by aromatization but by other means so proper treatment to such sides are better handled with a SERM instead of an AI. Am I correct?

#8

[quote]Growing_Boy wrote:
Please correct me if I am wrong, and this isn’t a thread jack Gerdy I’m merely trying to expand my knowledge like you, the estrogenic effects from anadrol are not caused by aromatization but by other means so proper treatment to such sides are better handled with a SERM instead of an AI. Am I correct? [/quote]

from my understanding so far yes, I’m sure somebody more knowledgeable can explain further.

DG

#9

[quote]AlteredState wrote:
Well theory is fine but in the real world you’ll probably find that:

Control E (through use of an AI) and you’ll be fine.

Unless… You really whack up your dose of tren or anadrol, with a high dose of test too. Then you may get gyno no matter what you do.

Wonstrol does seem to combat drol sides, even though science says that drol seems to directly activate the E receptor in certain tissues, therefore winstrol shouldn’t work to stop drol sides.

Now I’m not 100% on the theory (without looking it up) but in real terms, prolactin in men can affect erectile function (proL levels shoot up immediately following orgasm and you can’t get a boner again until they come down) and progesterone can affect ligament strength - adversely.[/quote]

Thanks for the reply alt.

So in your views, running an AI such as adex, asin, letro through any cycle, doesn’t matter the compounds, and one should theoretically be fine?

And with winstrol, people notice a change but in science it technically shouldn’t work to combat sides…greeeaaat :stuck_out_tongue: lol I guess added winni in any cycle could only really have a downside of joint ache and possible liver damage, besides that it could be only a plus, and fairly cheap so what the heck. I think my decision here so far is that if I should ever run anadrol, I’ll throw winni in for sh*ts n giggles nonetheless :stuck_out_tongue: lol

Gerdy

#10

[quote] Brook wrote:
Yup… i have read that Drol is kinda an unknown in the why it can give such serious estrogenic sides - whether it is through directly activating the estrogen receptor or progesterone… all i know is that 20mg of nolva taken with the drol makes a difference in the occurance of gyno sides when compared to no tamoxifen (but letro, proviron and winstrol all used).

As for progestin/progesterone etc. Gerdy, read this one… it is in my favourites as i am fascinated with the roles of those 3 hormones myself.

http://library.med.utah.edu/kw/human_reprod/lectures/prolactin/

I know that progesterone has a job and effects very similar to estrogen, and yes - it is a big player in women as it has alot of roles during pregnancy. It is the increase of progesterone that is one of the reasons fat and breast size increase when a woman becomes pregnant. ONE of the reasons.
I think that it agonizes estrogen to ‘potentate’ estrogenic effects. (excuse my limited vocabulary)

Prolactin as Altered said is related to the satisfaction after sex (in men) and is why it is such a potent libido killer - and is the main reason that caber is such a libido enhancer!
It is this that leads me to suspect that one of the main reasons 19-Nortestosterone steroids are that much more suppressive, or libido crushing at least, is down to the prolactin activity.
Even if the suppression of the HPTA isnt much more harsh. I know that a single dose of 100mg of Nandrolone caused full HPTA shutdown within 1 week and took 3 weeks to recover from. This was a mix of one long and one short ester. I dont think test is quite as suppressive - BUT, in the doses bodybuilders use both drugs cause 1005 suppression and shutdown, so the difference is kinda academic.

I believe that all 3 are needed for lactation - and as with all things in this game, it is genetics that dictate how liable one is to get this problem. ie. Naturally high levels of one of the hormones or naturally sensitive receptors to one of the hormones or some other factor i havent comprehended.

I think (again, as Altered stated) that a good dose of an AI should be all that is needed to sort out most of the sides from progesterone/prolactin… and without estrogen there will be no lactation nor gyno… I personally choose letrozole, and i think in this case it would be even more sensible as there are some studies to suggest that it has anti-prog. properties.
Plus libido isnt affected at dosages of less than 0.25mg (1/10th of a 2.5mg tablet! Value for money or what?)[/quote]

I read that letro could possibly be anti-prog which would be sweet to run when combining test/19-nor like you said, get the job done and value for money. My only concern is that letro might be too harsh on E. I read in the latest MD that too little E in the system and IGF-1 levels plummet which would suck no matter what other types of aas you where running.[quote]

Back to the drol issue - i have wondered if it may stimulate BOTH the progesterone and estrogen receptors to a degree…? Or if it somehow stimulates the progesterone receptor in SOME people due to a particular hormonal environment or some other unknown factor… Just a thought - no basis in reality of course!

I cannot comment on tren - never having used it Gerdy, but i have used Nandrolone extensively, and have never had a problem with prog. sides. And seeing as deca aromatizes to a degree too, the progesterogenic and estrogenic activity combined should readily cause gyno in me - as i have a small (managed) case already.
But it doesnt. :confused:

I personally would not have caber on hand if i ran a 19-nor steroid again… i think it is overkill on cycle, as a good dose of AI should sort the weakest link. (plus with nolva on hand and ALWAYS using proviron…)
I would however think about caber for PCT - i think that its anti-prolactin effect could be just what the doctor ordered for deca(/tren) shutdown/inhib. It is something i think i may try one day.[/quote]

So you think proviron should be added anytime that test is ran in a cycle which will pretty much be everytime? :stuck_out_tongue:

What about winni having the same ability regaurding shbg as proviron. I understand that they are completely two different drugs, but if one were running winni then what would the reason be fore the proviron. I’ve got limited research on winni so far and even less on proviron.[quote]

*…Just want to point out… this is just a post of what i think i know about these hormones - it isnt gospel and i am not infallable. It is a multi-way discussion, not a lecture.

I feel that some people are a little misguided as to the purpose of this forum and the roles of the posters.

No-one here is all knowing or all-seeing, and i feel that sometimes people forget that fact, along with forgetting that none of us are experts in this field (although there are 1 or 2 who are very close) - we are all just trying to learn, enjoy, bodybuild, powerlift and socialize… and build some big fuck-off muscles along the way (with the odd smattering of pussy too!).

I am just a bloke talking to like-minded individuals about shit we are interested in… thats all*

JJ[/quote]

LOL thanks man for the reply and the link. The last few paragraphs is one of the reasons I like you man :stuck_out_tongue: Totally agree, straight to the point, and with a little humor added in for good measure. lol

Gerdy

#11

so after reading the article from JJ I got one cool thing out of it and some questions. lol

GABA is supposed to be anti-prolactin which can be good during a 19-nor cycle. If some people get night sweats and insomnia from tren then taking GABA to help with sleep might not be a bad idea on that end too. Usually I’m not too fond of the idea of taking chemicals that are used in the brain such as melatonin and GABA, etc, but this might not be a bad idea.

Dopamine is released after sex correct? Dopamine is also anti-prolactin, so a good pick up line to tell the girls who know you juice is I need sex to combat my prolactin sides??? lol

Other than that it was a great read JJ thanks, I’m still far from knowledgable on the topic but getting closer :stuck_out_tongue:

I’d be willing to give bromo a go as part of pct, it seems that it might be a great idea after running a 19-nor.

Now another question, how suppressive are 19-nors to the hpta? Are they really that nasty on it, or is it the fact that prolactin could cause a lack of sex drive?

Would it be wise to take nolva/bromo as part of a pct, or maybe even bromo in replace of where you could take nolva in the test taper?

Last question for this winded post…why is nolva a bad idea to take when running a 19-nor?

thanks guys I’m enjoying learning about this…

Gerdy

#12

you had me at progesterone, Gerdy! lol winny as an ancillary? isn’t that double whamee (possibly not a RJ approved term to express a potential increased toll on the liver) to the liver though as they both are notably liver toxic drugs?

#13

[quote]Growing_Boy wrote:
you had me at progesterone, Gerdy! lol winny as an ancillary? isn’t that double whamee (possibly not a RJ approved term to express a potential increased toll on the liver) to the liver though as they both are notably liver toxic drugs? [/quote]

your talking at both drol and winni being liver toxic? It seems to be the new rage those two…So I was curious and that’s one of my reasons for the thread.

I still haven’t used anything so I don’t know from experience but I guess people have been stacking drol and winni together. The winni is supposed to help with the drol sides and the drol helps with the joints which is a downside of winni.

I don’t know anything past that besides whats in this thread…

I know JJ is currently doing it and a few other people have as well I think.

Gerdy

#14

Yeppers, we’ll just have to wait for JJ to fill the voids. Thats right, I’m waiting for JJ’s input as I am interested in using drol in the late future as well. In addition, since the man is currently using it, I find his advice/input quite valuable.

#15

[quote]Growing_Boy wrote:
Yeppers, we’ll just have to wait for JJ to fill the voids. Thats right, I’m waiting for JJ’s input as I am interested in using drol in the late future as well. In addition, since the man is currently using it, I find his advice/input quite valuable. [/quote]

me too…he’s running what i think I want to run sometime next year during a planned bulk ;D but I’m following his thread too…

so let’s keep everything related to the three nasty’s (estro,prog,prolactin) lol

DG

#16

[quote]Dirty Gerdy wrote:
so after reading the article from JJ I got one cool thing out of it and some questions. lol

GABA is supposed to be anti-prolactin which can be good during a 19-nor cycle. If some people get night sweats and insomnia from tren then taking GABA to help with sleep might not be a bad idea on that end too. Usually I’m not too fond of the idea of taking chemicals that are used in the brain such as melatonin and GABA, etc, but this might not be a bad idea.

Dopamine is released after sex correct? Dopamine is also anti-prolactin, so a good pick up line to tell the girls who know you juice is I need sex to combat my prolactin sides??? lol

Other than that it was a great read JJ thanks, I’m still far from knowledgable on the topic but getting closer :stuck_out_tongue:

I’d be willing to give bromo a go as part of pct, it seems that it might be a great idea after running a 19-nor.

Now another question, how suppressive are 19-nors to the hpta? Are they really that nasty on it, or is it the fact that prolactin could cause a lack of sex drive?

Would it be wise to take nolva/bromo as part of a pct, or maybe even bromo in replace of where you could take nolva in the test taper?

Last question for this winded post…why is nolva a bad idea to take when running a 19-nor?

thanks guys I’m enjoying learning about this…

Gerdy[/quote]

Remember what i said about nitrazepam (a benzodiazepine)? Well what is interesting is it is active through the GABA pathway in the brain and is how it causes its effects, like barbituates and alcohol. I am betting there is something there.

As for winny instead of proviron, for the most part proviron was always cheaper than winstrol, plus it is a great androgen - so that really helps with the quality look/dry look when low enough bodyfat.
Saying that, it does seem that they are pretty interchangeable… i cant think of a good reason to use proviron over winstrol IF winstrol is as powerful a SHBG binding steroid as thought.
Masteron in most cases isnt much more than proviron, and is dosed at the same dosage… so that could be used for its extra anabolism too… fuck it, throw them all in the mix!

I am not sure on why 19-Nors are so much more suppressive… i assumed it was due to the fact they were active on more levels than just estrogen and testosterone. They increase prolactin and progesterone, which both have roles to play in fucking up a guys shit.
Prolactin, estrogen and progesterone all play off of each other and potentate each others effects to a large degree… when all 3 are present it makes for a very hard time for the male endocrine system.

I dont know the difference between bromo and caber though - is it kinda like the difference between clomid and tamox? Or is it more like aromasin and arimidex…?

JJ

#17

[quote]Dirty Gerdy wrote:
Growing_Boy wrote:
Yeppers, we’ll just have to wait for JJ to fill the voids. Thats right, I’m waiting for JJ’s input as I am interested in using drol in the late future as well. In addition, since the man is currently using it, I find his advice/input quite valuable.

me too…he’s running what i think I want to run sometime next year during a planned bulk ;D but I’m following his thread too…

so let’s keep everything related to the three nasty’s (estro,prog,prolactin) lol

DG[/quote]

OK well i will be sure to keep it updated… :wink:

#18

[quote] Brook wrote:
Dirty Gerdy wrote:
As for winny instead of proviron, for the most part proviron was always cheaper than winstrol, plus it is a great androgen - so that really helps with the quality look/dry look when low enough bodyfat.
Saying that, it does seem that they are pretty interchangeable… i cant think of a good reason to use proviron over winstrol IF winstrol is as powerful a SHBG binding steroid as thought.

JJ[/quote]

I would stop short of saying that winstrol and proviron are interchangeable. For the purpose of SHBG binding, yeah I would agree. But the whole reason that I would use winstrol with anadrol is for the anti progesterone effects.

Unless I have missed something in my past readings I don’t believe that proviron possesses this characteristic. If I am wrong in this thinking please call me on it, like I said I may have been misinformed.

#19

DO you want to get really confused?

Read this:

http://www.drlam.com/A3R_brief_in_doc_format/progesterone.cfm

#20

[quote]2thepain wrote:
Brook wrote:
Dirty Gerdy wrote:
As for winny instead of proviron, for the most part proviron was always cheaper than winstrol, plus it is a great androgen - so that really helps with the quality look/dry look when low enough bodyfat.
Saying that, it does seem that they are pretty interchangeable… i cant think of a good reason to use proviron over winstrol IF winstrol is as powerful a SHBG binding steroid as thought.

JJ

I would stop short of saying that winstrol and proviron are interchangeable. For the purpose of SHBG binding, yeah I would agree. But the whole reason that I would use winstrol with anadrol is for the anti progesterone effects.

Unless I have missed something in my past readings I don’t believe that proviron possesses this characteristic. If I am wrong in this thinking please call me on it, like I said I may have been misinformed.[/quote]

I didn’t mean to exchange the two necessarily in an anadrol containing cycle… more asking if the two can be interchanged with each other for the shbg effects? For example, if you were running a test only cycle and you had winni and proviron on hand, would it really be a benefit to run both the winni and prov? Or stick with on or the other. I guess an even simpler question would be, would you ever run winni and proviron together in the same cycle?

Like I said earlier I don’t know enough about either drug and I know that they are different so…lol…but thanks dood.

Gerdy