T Nation

Prohormones: Superdrol Cycle


#21

Question, just trying to learn some stuff in the few years I have before I go on.
If the estrogen rebound is what causes the problems, then would an AI like Arimidex be good enough?

Also, if it is a liquid form of tamox citr then if it is say 20mg/ml, would this not include the citrate in that calculation? So then taking 20mg of tamox citrate would be less tamoxifen than you need...correct? Or am I off base here?


#22

I do not usually come here. I am usually over at anabolic minds, but I saw some communications that may cause a misunderstanding, and figured I had better sign up so I could ensure you understand.
Clomid is by no means obsolete, although the side can be challenging. Clomid and Tamox both have areas of best use.

Example:
Although 19-Nors do not convert to estrogen directly, 19-Nors can cause a different type of gyno that is caused by progesterone. Progesterone gyno doesn't cause a lump like normal gyno. Typically your nipples start to itch/burn and then a few weeks later you start to make milk/prolactin.

If you used Tamox this issue would get worse. Clomid does not make it worse, but does not completely solve the issue either, but it is part of the suggested solution. So in this case Clomid would be useful for a PCT that progesterone prone, such as a 19-Nor. I also suggest that you should run a Progesterone inhibiter at the same time.

Progesterone inhibiters: (IMO most effective at the bottom, lowest at the top)
Letro 0.5mg ED (Next week 0.25mg ED)
Cabergoline 0.15mg ED
Prami

I typically may run some Vitex 500mg ED. Ldopa. and B6 100mg ED, just as safety at the start of a cycle and slowly bring in some very low level prami. If I have any itching, I immediately increase the prami and run some low level letro, just to make sure all avenues are stopped. Agin keeping the levels as low as possible to get the job done. Letro can limit gains if ran too high, but at low levels is fine. You can tell by if your joints start to hurt, then too much letro.

For M-drol, Tamox is IMO preferred as long as you are not running progesterone prone items with it. Tamox has less sides than Clomid. Clomid can make you feel like a woman during that time of month, so if you are on Clomid, watch your attitude. But if you run Mdrol into a Progesterone prone chemical, such as LMG, then the suggested PCT is clomid.
I hope this helps.

grega


#23

Thanks for the post! A lot f good info. I read that nolva could cause progesterone effects also, but I don't remember where. Could someone post a link to a study or something just to make sure it isn't broknowledge?

That's a good idea with the l-dopa. I'm suprised more people don't take levodopa. It's prordrug to dopamine the way 5-htp is a prodrug to serotonin. It's a prescription medication used for parkinsons (just like prami), but because it's found in plants, it can be sold as a nutritional supplement. It's powerful medication though. With breast cancer serms are used as a first line treatment, then if that doesn't work after a few years, AIs are used as a second line treatment.

With parkinson's, levodopa/carbidopa is used as first line treatment, and drugs like prami, caber, etc. are used as a second line treatment. Levodopa can be almost as effective as pramipexole at lowering progesterone, but with fewer side effects.

Levodopa could be used as a way to pyramid up to prami. Take levodopa at first, and when you can handle more dopamine agonism (a stronger effect, assuming that's what you want), you can start taking prami. Levodopa could also be used the reverse way, to taper off of long term prami use.

The thing about levodopa, is that it needs to be taken with something like carbidopa. Carbidopa is taken with l-dopa, so the l-dopa isn't converted into dopamine outside of the CNS (which can cause side effects). Carbidopa doesn't cross the BBB, so it still allows for the desired levodopa metabolization in the CNS. Carbidopa is presciption only. However, EGCG (green tea extract) can chemically prevent the metabolisation of dopamine (outside the CNS - it doesn't cross the BBB).

With prami, it's already active, so there's no way to selectivly decrease it's dopmaine agonism outside of the CNS. That's part of the reason levo-dopa causes fewer undesirable side effects. So, I would always take an EGCG supplement, which is sometimes called a green tea extract supplement, with l-dopa.

If you want to take levodopa, it'd be a good idea to take it with EGCG, a green tea extract, to help with side effects and to make it safer.

Personally, I would just keep estrogen at the right level, and not take huge doses of progesteronic steroids (other than tren of course), instead of taking prami.


#24

Also, isn't anabolicminds the forum that invented pulsing orals?


#25

I do not knowm who invented pulsing, but yes there is much information about pulsing orals at AM.

Quote:
thermonuclear105-20-2009, 02:23 AM
From another site speaking specifically about Tren.

The only anti-estrogen I wouldnâ??t recommend for combatting this gyno is Nolva (tamoxifen) because in (J Steroid Biochem Mol Biol. 2003 Sep;86(3-5):461-7) they found progesterone receptor expression increased, while it decreased with other anti-aromatase inhibitors.
End Quote...


#26

A "PCT that is progesterone prone" ?? What the hell are you talking about.

Back up your claims with sources please.

AnabolicMinds has more 19 year old parrots than any forum on the internet


#27

"Anti-aromatase inhibtor" ? That doesnt even make sense. First off tamoxifen is not an *aromatase inhibitor and second "anti-aromtase ihibitor" is exactly the opposite 'thing' youd want for gyno prevention. Does that person have any idea what he's saying?


#28

Pulsing is retarded. Inconsistent blood levels leads to increased side effects and DOES NOT mitigate liver stress.

Jesus christ this thread sucks.


#29

If I take 1g of tren and 200mg of dbol ED will I look like you bonez?


#30

Hi Bonez,

Quote:
"Also, isn't anabolicminds the forum that invented pulsing orals?"
End Quote.

Answer:
I was replying to the above quote. I was not trying to state that I agreed with pulsing or disagreed, but that there is pulsing information over at AM. I am still studying this and I have been trying to keep an open mind, until I learn more. I would love to hear your thoughts on pulsing. Which I guess we just did.

Quote:
"PCT that is progesterone prone" ??
End Quote.
I was talking about a PCT that follows a progesterone prone cycle, like trenbolone, 19-Nors, or LMG. There are some personnel who may lactate from these types of cycles. I came close one time and I had the proper chems on hand to resolve the issue. So I alweays try to help others when running these types of cycles. If you have some expertise in this area, I am all ears. I want to learn.

Quote:
I read that nolva could cause progesterone effects also, but I don't remember where. Could someone post a link to a study or something just to make sure it isn't broknowledge?
End Quote.

Answer:
I had replied to this question, rather quickly, as I had to go to a staff meeting, so I posted what I thought was a source. I guess I should of posted less information and instead only posted the source, which is Steroid Biochem Mol Biol. 2003 Sep;86(3-5):461-7). I did not write that source, and do not feel qualified to debate the information in that source. If you would like to share some expertise in this area, I would appreciate hearing your thoughts.


#31

A post was split to a new topic: Designer Steroid Cycle


#32