T Nation

Prohormones - Safety First


#1

Hi guys - new here.

Been training about 5 years and i'm 23 - 182 cm, 87 kg, fairly lean (yes, i'm european)

Going to the states for 3 months and well.. it's the land of opportunity.

I read the PH faq but i still do have some questions.

Please note that i'm a newbie when it comes to steoroids - i will educate myself, but i need to know if prohormones are for me.

First - i do not have access to real steoroids, nor do i plan on breaking the law.

Basically i'm looking for a relatively safe way to improve my gains.

Criteria: Must be legal, oral (including, if needed, the pct) low sides. I'm fine with acne, tempoarily decreased libido, moodswings, headaches etc - but gyne(bitch tits) and male premature hairloss is not because i'm suspectible to both.

I understand that this, if it's possible, will come at the cost of lesser gains.

Can this be done, or should i just stick to my proteinpowder?


#2

That's a good question and some valid concerns. Both of which you seem to have answered yourself.


#3

I would definitely stick with the protein powder.

BMC


#4

Creatine, Ribose, HMB, Leucine, BCAA, Whey, ZMA.. these will serve your goals better than any hormone.


#5

If i did, then i do not know what i've answered.


#6

I'm already on both whey, zma and creatine while i find the others somewhat.. semi-redundant. Diet is top-notch, and i know how to both progress my training with periodization etc etc.

I've been reading on this extensive article http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/catproh.htm and it's alot to chew at once. Essentially, it seems to give alot of praise to Nor-diol (19-Nor-4-androsten-3,17-diol) and 4-diol or 4AD (4-androsten-3,17-diol) but i'm guessing, that these are banned.

edit: and i can tell that they have. Any decent alternatives out there?


#7

Yes.. Ribose, HMB and Leucine are semi-redundant aren't they?!

I would use Leucine before ZMA any day of the week.

Anyways - good luck in your endeavours...


#8

Well. It is my firm belief that if you have a good diet and training schedule, steoroids aside, you're 90-95% set. Protein powder is just a convenience thing.

Anyway. It seems like most of the good stuff has been banned. It seems like a marketing jungle out there, so if a guy is to acquire a decent PH legally, can it be done?


#9

You you believe that diet and training is 90-95% of it?

I think it is 100% of it personally. Everything else gives 'edge'.. but it is diet and training that will give gains for the rest of your life.

Anyway, health and fitness morality aside; For a 'regular' trainee who wants to stay lean and look 'fit' then adding protein powders is more for convenience, sure.

I mean if one cannot eat 100g of protein a day (well above the regular UK/US diet, and more than enough to support anabolism in a general fitness trainee) then they are just lazy - and most general trainees are when it comes to working for results, in the kitchen in particular.
But for a steroid using BB who is aiming to build as much muscle tissue as humanly possible, a protein powder is an absolute necessity to get in a minimum of 350g a day and some even upto 700g/day.

I personally do not consider carbohydrate or protein powders 'supplements' - they are food sources too aiding the achievement of daily targets. I simply could not get or afford to eat as much protein as i do without my food supplements.

Also, to suggest that any of the main supplements that have been mentioned here are less than worthwhile, would be seriously short changing yourself (ribose, HMB, Leucine, BCAA.. whatever - all the ones mentioned are steadfast, effective supplements proven to achieve results - more than can be said for the majority of PH's and often much cheaper too).

Not to mention you want to use Anabolic Androgens WITHOUT the androgenic side effects. Generally speaking it is fairly well understood that if you don't use an aromatising compound for fear of 'Gyne', you will be using something that has a higher activity at the Androgen Receptor.. and if it is a mild androgen and non-aromatising, it really is not worth the inhibition.

I am not saying this for no reason, but if you don't want to aggravate your MPB, then you will need to use Prescription drugs alongside the androgens, or not use them (seeing as you are apparently susceptible to MPB).
IME of the PH you read up on, the banned ones on Bigcats profile (i have read it too, a few years ago now) they were nowhere near as effective as AAS, significantly more expensive, and i honestly got comparable gains from adding ribose and Creatine, with NONE of the sides those products did cause.

This was with the PH's that were banned a long time ago now, and the ones that rem,ain are less effective than that.

PH and DS ARE a marketing jungle.. they are often old pro-steroids that were dropped from testing in the 60's onwards, due to unsuitability or simply not having the effect they required of the compound.

The supplement manufacturers only need to state that the chemical is 'related' to a well known and effective steroid, and they have a million dollar business.
The 'drugs' are weak anabolics and often high in sides, and always toxic - most of the kids who come here with gyno needing help have been using PH.
This is partly due to the high incidence of side effects of these products and partly due to the main market whom these products are aimed - naive young men who believe that this is all they need to really make the difference to their training.

You sound smart and fairly switched on, albeit dismissive and i am just advising you that IF you don't want androgenic OR estroegnic sides, then you will either need to use prescription only drugs bought on the black market to use them, or you will need to choose alternatives - ie. Non-PH supps.

Plus lastly, IF you are going to be buying legal drugs illegally, for the control of the sides caused by the PH's - you may as well save money and improve results by using real AAS.

See the point? Legal PH's need prescription drugs to control the sides as do illegal steroids (depending on country).

Upto you.


#10

Hi Brook

You make many valid points and i agree with you.

Seems like the only way to do it properly is getting hold of the illegal stuff - in which case real aas is better. This is not for me - especially as a working tourist risking ban for life.

One comment though - i am on propecia and rogaine on my 2nd year now and the effects on my MPB is quiet amazing. I've gone from a really thin and see-through crown to one that looks fairly full and dense. One concern though, is that finasteride only blocks about 70% of DHT in which case any androgenetic side would reverse this effect - unless a switch to dutasteride which blocks 100% but is also not approved by the FDA yet.

So i suppose i could use a PH with androgenic sides, and be relatively safe?


#11

Yes.. i didn't realise you were on Propeica already. that will solve the DHT issue with many non-aromatising PH's.


#12

Excellent. So really, PH's these days are practically worthless compared to, i.e creatine bcaa and leucine?


#13

IMO that is not true... Some of them are really quite effective at building crazy strength and size. However, they come with many side effects that would seem to affect you too much to justify their use.

Superdrol clones, epistane, and even trenadrol(lots of possible side effects but lots of strength) give much more gains in strength and size than any non-hormonal product ever would.


#14

I might add that you should go research at another board that specializes in such products like the anabolicminds.com forum


#15

Are any of those legal?


#16

sigh


#17

My experience has been different. (I do not understand your inclusion EOT, of the word 'useless'.. where did i suggest that in my post? This is clearly an inflammatory response).

I have not used the new wave of PH's but i understand it is generally well accepted they are NOT as effective as the original banned products - of which i have used. If the new 'clones' of the older PGH's are more effective, then i am sure i am mistaken.

I base my opinion on the belief that clones are not as potent (i am tallking about the use of a $79.95 bottle of x here.. not the overloading of 4 bottles over 4 weeks - i am sure that works fantastically) as the predecessors.

I have experience training totally naturally.. without a single supplement and using legal supplements - and i can quite honestly say some of the best periods of growth have been using products such as Ribose and Creatine (must be used together), Protein in large amounts over just 1-2 scoops a day, Carbolin 19 and CLA and AAKG (together also).

Compared to the moderate but noticeable increases in strength and aggression (more so than size) that are soon lost from the PH's i used - they reign supreme.. I also took into account the cost, and suppression along with other sides - which means the overall package is just not worth it IMO.
ESPECIALLY if one is concerned about both estrogen and Androgen related sides then i would choose non-hormonal products.

I honestly never met a trainee that had a better than average physique who used PH's religiously. They are always used by the under/overweight youngsters who either want the benefit of steroids without the law breaking or simply cannot get the sources and are quite regularly used as a means to better gains without the real work being in-putted.

lastly - IME the claim they produce crazy size and strength gains is quite an overstatement. I appreciate that some claim the ran a cycle of Epi and gained 20lbs in 4 weeks.. but seeing (AFAIK) that this product does not aromatise.. this would make it more anabolic than any illegal steroid!! My guess is the 20lbs is 2lbs of muscle and 15-18lbs of fat.

As i have stated already though, if you use propeica, you may as well use a PH - it shouldn't affect your hair as long as it converts via the 5AR.

Also - if you aren't using creatine and leucine and proteins etc.. then you have no business using hormonal products..


#18

Thank you for your time everyone. Perhaps some time in the future i will delve deeper into the dark side, but for now i'll just play natural :slight_smile:


#19

I've done several cycles of H-Drol + Bold in the last 2 years with great results and no sides.

That are the milder PH.

Obviously creatine, protein, etc. are necessary,... but unless you've an amazing genetics, non-hormonal supps alone can't give you really BIG muscles.


#20

That is fair point mate - but my point is if you are gonna fuck with hormones... then do it properly! :wink: