Program with No Vertical Pull

Hi t-nation
I’m doing a 2split upperbody/lowerbody.
The upperbody day looks like this:

BB Bench
BB Incline Bench
BB rows
DB Shoudlerpres
Triceps extensions
Incline curls

I am thinking about decreasing my number of excercises and increasing the amount of sets for the remaning ones. The program would look like this:

BB Bench
BB rows
DB shoulderpress
triceps extensions
incline curls

Meaning that i have removed the vertical pull that chinups was. I am currently googling if this could cause problems and would like your input on it.

You can do one vertical upper body day and one horizontal upper body day. Like this:

A: Vertical upper body
DB shoulder press
Lat pulldown / chin-up / pull-up

B: Horizontal upper body
BB bench
BB rows

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I use a vertical pull as a warm up on upper body days,but it’s been months since I really pushed a vertical pull and my back looks better than ever

That’s actually how I’ve worked my lifting schedule for a few years now. I started doing it when I was following Wiggy’s Singles & Doubles, then continued doing it when I started doing 531, and still do it with Juggernaut now. Only difference is I superset a pull before each push on my main lifts, so:

-Bench day
A. Row (different variations as I feel like changing it up)
B. Bench

-Military Press day
A. Weighted pullups
B. Military Press

I’ve been doing it so long, I hate doing it any other way at this point.

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You want more pulling than pushing. I’d rather have 3-4 pulling exercises with 2 pushes than the other way around

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But to answer your question you don’t “need” vertical pulls, but I’d at least replace it with another horizontal pull

Thank you for all the answers :slight_smile:
As i understand it, it is possible to do without the vertical pulls… but it seems to be less than optimal. Think i will try something like what furius suggests.

Why are you avoiding vertical pulls?

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As far as growth in the lats and upper back are concerned, vertical pulls aren’t exactly necessary. I gained a considerable amount of back size in 3-months doing mostly just rows and deadlifts, with the occasional set of high rep pulldowns. I also went from doing sets of 3-5 pull-ups with bodyweight to sets of 8-10 without doing a single pull-up.

This is not ideal, however. I’d definitely throw in some type of pull-up or chin-up to work as an antagonist to the overhead press. You could superset those two together if you’re wanting to be time conservative.

Yeah as others have said find a way to keep both.
I would actually say for most people(especiall those who work in an office) they are more important for posture and keeping your shoulders pain free in the long term than rows/horizontal work

just supersetting a few unweighted sets inbetween between bench sets a la Wendler is fine. If strong, doing them as a finisher after arm work -is a great way to get some nasty gunz

As much as I hate to turn this into one of those threads, all the statements about “I made a ton of progress without doing vertical pulls” without photos or anything isn’t of a lot of help.

Not the same pose exactly, but there were definitely some size added in 3 months.

I don’t mean to insult you, so please don’t take it as such, but going from looking completely untrained to looking a tiny bit like you’ve lifted weights a little really doesn’t strengthen your position.

You want big lats? Do vertical pulls.


You have a good point, I just wanted to give my .02 cents. Lat growth is lat growth whether it was going from small to less small or yoked to more yoked. I never said vertical pulls were not optimal or beneficial, I just said that lat growth can be achieved without them and I don’t know how anyone could argue that.

no one has, but your lats’ll look way better with vertical pulls…

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I’m guessing you didn’t read the last part of my first post, I pretty much said that. Lol. In no way did I imply that ignoring vertical pulls is what everyone should do. I didn’t even recommend not including them, I just stated my personal experience.

Keep in mind that there’s a bigger picture. If you want to omit vertical pulls to maybe emphasize work on lat and upper back thickness or work more on movement pattern health with stuff like seated db snatches, face pulls, or pull overs, or band pull aparts then a 12 week program devoted to that might be perfect for you.

Now if your main goal is lat width, then omitting vertical pulls would likely be less than optimal.

yeah no shit; I was agreeing with you

Removing vertical pull is like removing your cock. One of the worst fucking ideas ever.

You should be firing out chins like nobody’s business. Ok, you’ll probably end up with a fucked elbow however it will have the most profound effect on your physique. More so than any other exercise in my opinion.