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Program High Frequency Training?

Hello guys, I’ve been a oly lifter most of my lifing carrer. A few months ago I started powerlifting, and tried a westside-ish aproach, but it doesnt seem to be working, I really feel I could do a lot better with more frequent training.

So, I’ve been reading Sheiko templates, but I can only find some of the premade programs, I would like to get the idea of how you program this kind of training,like if there is some kind of numers you have to hit, something that is just too much to recover from, etc.

Becouse I guess I can’t just go bulgarian style with bench/squat/dl/ohp everyday as I did whith the oly lifts-lol :).

Read the Modified Bulgarian thread… no one has died yet lol. Seriously, consider a Broz-style approach if that interests you, it does work.
If you want to try Sheiko, just use a pre-made program to start and adjust or pick another after you have tested it for a bit. Most people use the set Sheiko cycles without adjustment, at least at first.

You could also set up a training cycle based on Prelipin’s table. Look up max fit usa and prelipins on google or something and you’ll even find formula’s for figuring out how much volume based on the table to program a week.

5/3/1 full body and Dan John’s even easier strength/40 day programs are both (or can be adapted to in Wendler’s case) based around frequency, might be worth a look for you.

Just one more option, but take a look at the way both Jay Nera and Dan Green train. Its nothing extremely fancy, but they both squat 2-3 times a week, press 3 times a week and pull once. Again, just an option

A lot of nice advice here guys, thanks, I’ll read on all of it and decide.

[quote]TheNumeroUno wrote:
Hello guys, I’ve been a oly lifter most of my lifing carrer. A few months ago I started powerlifting, and tried a westside-ish aproach, but it doesnt seem to be working, I really feel I could do a lot better with more frequent training.

So, I’ve been reading Sheiko templates, but I can only find some of the premade programs, I would like to get the idea of how you program this kind of training,like if there is some kind of numers you have to hit, something that is just too much to recover from, etc.

Becouse I guess I can’t just go bulgarian style with bench/squat/dl/ohp everyday as I did whith the oly lifts-lol :).[/quote]

Being a former olympic lifter, I think you would be able to take a shot at true high frequency training if anybody could. You’ve got the years built up from very frequent O training. I think if anything gets you in trouble it would be the deadlift, but I believe it is very doable.

[quote]TheNumeroUno wrote:
Hello guys, I’ve been a oly lifter most of my lifing carrer. A few months ago I started powerlifting, and tried a westside-ish aproach, but it doesnt seem to be working, I really feel I could do a lot better with more frequent training.

So, I’ve been reading Sheiko templates, but I can only find some of the premade programs, I would like to get the idea of how you program this kind of training,like if there is some kind of numers you have to hit, something that is just too much to recover from, etc.

Becouse I guess I can’t just go bulgarian style with bench/squat/dl/ohp everyday as I did whith the oly lifts-lol :).[/quote]

Since you went bulgarian style for O lifting, you should have more than enough power to press daily and squat daily. Take the same approach you did with Oly lifting (i.e. daily max, don’t psych up, don’t pursue max lifts where form breaks down appreciably, etc).

Bench pressing may be interesting because it is likely you do not have any chest power at all. I would perhaps start with something like squat 5 days/week, OHP 3 days and bench the other two along with assistance work for chest, and Deadlift 3x a week. I would only pull to a max once a week, keeping the others around your C&J max + 20% ish. I would pull only to a 3RM for a while, not a 1RM.

With Westside you should be doing the 4 main workouts(2 high volume medium intensity speed-strength/2 low volume max intensity max effort) per week and supplement with small extra workouts. You should be training starting strength, explosive strength, speed strength, strength speed and absolute strength + muscular strength, muscular endurance, flexibility, conditioning. If you do it right it works. I hav yet to find a better method out there today.

If the problem you had with Westside was the frequency and not so much the methods, here’s a great link to set up a program with high frequency while still using the basic philosophy behind concurrent training:

http://articles.elitefts.com/training-articles/training-with-purpose-utilizing-different-methods-in-a-high-frequency-approach/

You could train the lifts 3-4x a week like this. You could practice the comp lifts with this template up to twice a week if you use the optional 4th day for that. You can even set up different blocks focusing on different qualities if you manipulate a few variables. I’ve only been at it for a week so I have yet to be able to provide personal testimony for it’s efficacy.

Wow, I apreciate your help and thoughts in the westside template, but I really liked the idea Aragorn suugested.
So if I just plan it Oly-Program style it would be something like this

Monday:
Squat to max, 2-3 doubles at 90% of max
Press to max, same
Clean pull, 80%x5x3

Tuesday:
Front squat to max, 2-3 doubles at 90% of max
Bench press to max, 2-3 doubles at 90% of max
Bench press 5x2@80%

Wednesday:
Squat to max, 2-3 doubles at 90% of max
Press to max, 2-3 doubles at 90% of max
Snatch grip high pull 5x3@80%

Thusday
Front squat to max, 2-3 doubles at 90% of max
Bench press to max, 2-3 doubles at 90% of max
Bench press 5x2@80%

Friday
Squat to max, 2-3 doubles at 90% of max
Press to max, 2-3 doubles at 90% of max
Deadlift to max, 2-3 doubles at 85% or so

Everyday I would do some kind of chin-up/row variaton, face pulls and other rehab work for shoulders, and throw some curls here and there for elbow health.

Of course I would aproach it as a technical max, so, dont psych up, no ammonia and never-ever failing a rep -lol.

The squats and press looks pretty doable imo, and the pulls doesnt seems like a challenge, so I just need to see how my body reacts to benching more than once a month os so.

Couple things here:

  1. I don’t know how your olympic programming for squats was, if it was maxing out or 90% or what, so that may cause some variable adjustment if you were squatting to 90% but not a max and now you are maxing out (even a technical max)

  2. Bench pressing. I would either put benching 2 days apart–i.e. tues/fri or mon/thurs, and do chest assistance with the workout–or I would save your chest assistance work for friday when you have a solid 3-4 days away from benching to recover. Your pectorals do not get much if any work from your olympic lifting regimens, so that is what will take the brunt of this new training stress. OHP 2 days in a row isn’t a problem for an ex-olympic lifter, especially if you make one of them strict and the other a jerk or something.

  3. Regardless, I would only bench to a 3RM not a max. I would bench with a 2-4 second pause on the bottom. 2 seconds if it’s a true electronically timed pause, 4 “count” if it’s you counting since people tend to rush their mental counts. You’ll want more volume and more reps because it was left to gather dust for so long. The pause will do similar things to paused squats, and you need to learn to keep tight with the weight in the hole–you’ve probably mastered that with a squat from your years in olympic style training but it’s a necessary skill with the bench. Maybe you only start out 1 of your bench days with paused presses, maybe both.

  4. Since you don’t have to worry as much about perfect catch position you can push the weight on the clean pulls–I am assuming you mean a pull with a hip explosion and trap shrug/arm bend as opposed to just labelling a deadlift a clean pull. If that’s the case and you are talking about true high pulls, you can ramp to a 3RM and then do some work at 80-90% of that to get some heavier poundage.

  5. Consider rotating in deadlifts from raised blocks and rack pulls. they tax your back in different ways from the oly lift variations and rack pulls will help you get used to heavy lockouts, which may help accelerate your progress. Maybe not considering your training background, but worth an occasional look-see. I would not rely heavily on them since rack pulls can easily become an ego lift rather than a useful deadlift variation, but they do serve some purpose.

  6. You will probably never fail a bench due to weak triceps or shoulders because of your pressing–improvements there will be entirely technical and based on improvements in lat strength/recruitment and chest strength. You need to train your chest like a bodybuilder to start with. Not the bench, but the actual muscles. You can spread that stuff around, not a great idea to put it all together if you are not used to benching a lot, but I would at least follow a Sheiko style routine of putting some flyes in after bench pressing.

You might even consider a 5x5 routine for your bench only on your 2 bench days. I think this would help your volume and also help the muscular side. Your triceps and shoulders will stay plenty strong with the pressing overhead.

  1. Although I do not anticipate you having many problems, watch your shoulders. It is possible because of all the lifts being “slow speed strength” lifts and having a much more significant eccentric phase than jerks, jerk drives, or olympic lifts, that your shoulders might nag. Be aware and if that’s the case decrease the intensity until you get used to it–take only 1 max OHP day a week and use the other 2 as “just move the weight” days.

Last thought–you are probably already very technically proficient at the squat from oly lifting. This means most of your gains will come from increased muscular strength rather than technical improvements (unless you decide to change your style of squatting).

You are probably not used to a powerlifting deadlift vs. a clean 1st pull deadlift. There is a significant technical difference, as there is with benching, so there is a lot of room for improvement without fully maxing out on the lifts (particularly bench). You will need to be able to feel and activate your lats for benching, not just have strength in them.

[quote]TheNumeroUno wrote:
Hello guys, I’ve been a oly lifter most of my lifing carrer. A few months ago I started powerlifting, and tried a westside-ish aproach, but it doesnt seem to be working, I really feel I could do a lot better with more frequent training.

So, I’ve been reading Sheiko templates, but I can only find some of the premade programs, I would like to get the idea of how you program this kind of training,like if there is some kind of numers you have to hit, something that is just too much to recover from, etc.

Becouse I guess I can’t just go bulgarian style with bench/squat/dl/ohp everyday as I did whith the oly lifts-lol :).[/quote]

I train high frequency exclusively. I am a raw lifter and train only the main lifts.

Week 1 - 5’s
Week 2 - 3’s
Week 3 - 2’s

Monday - Heavy pulls or squats
Tuesday - Heavy raw bench or slingshot
Wednesday - Pulls from floor to knees or pause squats for 5’s
Thursday - Pause bench for 5’s
Friday - Pin pulls from knees to lockout or high box squats for 5’s
Saturday - 2-board press for 5’s

On Monday/Tuesdays, I work up using only 45/25/10lb plates. I start w/ about 60% of my training max and make 20lb jumps unless it’s going from 245 to 275. If I want volume I’ll throw another 10 on and make it 265. Either way, stick w/ the 45/25/10’s. Work up until the next jump in weight won’t yield the required reps for that workout. Stop there. (example: 185x5 205x5 225x5 245x5 265x5 275x5 - prob won’t get 295x5 - stop at 275x5 and save it for the next workout)

Wednesday thru Saturday I don’t go heavy. I focus on making good reps and get some volume in.

The only assistance work I do is w/ bands or very light dumbbells for high reps just to force some blood into whatever I just got done working. For bench I usually just use a mini band to work different shoulder angles. Deads and squat I do high rep quad ext or hamstring curls.

If you’re feeling fatigued, take a day or two off or just lighten up the weight when it gets to the Wed-Sat training. Remember, these frequency workouts are about optimal training for what you are capable of that day. If you skip Wednesday, don’t do Wednesday’s workout on Thursday. Do Thursday’s workout.

I’ve had a lot of success making gains by cutting out the fat of all the extra “bodybuilding” stuff. Alexander Faleev, Vladimir Volkov both use nothing extra. Even Sheiko uses extra stuff sparingly. All the extra stuff leads to longer recovery times. The muscle imbalance stuff is garbage and never been proven.

I like separating the workouts rather than having squat/bench or bench/dead on the same day and making it a 2-3 hour marathon of training like Sheiko can do.

[quote]osu122975 wrote:

I’ve had a lot of success making gains by cutting out the fat of all the extra “bodybuilding” stuff. Alexander Faleev, Vladimir Volkov both use nothing extra. Even Sheiko uses extra stuff sparingly. All the extra stuff leads to longer recovery times. The muscle imbalance stuff is garbage and never been proven.
[/quote]

While I can be a fan of taking out the extra bodybuilding stuff, and am so in high frequency stuff which is how I have been training until very recently, I find your comment about muscle imbalances being garbage and never proven troubling and rather mistaken.

Muscle imbalances exist because of differences in leverage and limb length, even if they didn’t exist for the reasons most people have them (lack of mobility, tissue creep from lack of movement, lack of mental connection leading to an inability to activate the muscles, bad firing pattern, lack of dynamic flexibility, nerve damage, or any combination of several of these as they tend to feed on each other to some degree).

I recommend use of some ancillary chest work because it is quite likely that a) his chest is going to be much weaker than his triceps/shoulders b) his chest does not have the same physical preparedness and fatigue resistance that his highly trained shoulders and triceps have c) he will have a severely shoulder/tricep dominant pressing pattern which will leave a giant sticking point in his bench press at some point or other in the future, if it is not worked on.

It is advisable to address these points, which were generated by a lack of attention over years in olympic lifting (where they were not essential to good sport performance), as soon as possible in order to bring up his lifts as soon as possible. Same goes for lats, because half the problem for most people is feeling them work, contract, squeeze, tighten, all that stuff. The OP’s lats have probably been worked quite a bit with all the Oly stuff and chins, but it is still quite possible that the mind/muscle connection is weaker than it needs to be. In any case, lat work very rarely hurt anybody’s bench press (as in, never).

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

While I can be a fan of taking out the extra bodybuilding stuff, and am so in high frequency stuff which is how I have been training until very recently, I find your comment about muscle imbalances being garbage and never proven troubling and rather mistaken.

Muscle imbalances exist because of differences in leverage and limb length, even if they didn’t exist for the reasons most people have them (lack of mobility, tissue creep from lack of movement, lack of mental connection leading to an inability to activate the muscles, bad firing pattern, lack of dynamic flexibility, nerve damage, or any combination of several of these as they tend to feed on each other to some degree).

I recommend use of some ancillary chest work because it is quite likely that a) his chest is going to be much weaker than his triceps/shoulders b) his chest does not have the same physical preparedness and fatigue resistance that his highly trained shoulders and triceps have c) he will have a severely shoulder/tricep dominant pressing pattern which will leave a giant sticking point in his bench press at some point or other in the future, if it is not worked on.

It is advisable to address these points, which were generated by a lack of attention over years in olympic lifting (where they were not essential to good sport performance), as soon as possible in order to bring up his lifts as soon as possible. Same goes for lats, because half the problem for most people is feeling them work, contract, squeeze, tighten, all that stuff. The OP’s lats have probably been worked quite a bit with all the Oly stuff and chins, but it is still quite possible that the mind/muscle connection is weaker than it needs to be. In any case, lat work very rarely hurt anybody’s bench press (as in, never).[/quote]

The lats get work on the negative portion of the lift. You don’t necessarily need to pull in order to build the lats or work the lats.

You can also focus on doing half reps (chest to midpoint) and keep stress on the lower half of the bench to build pop off the chest. It works very well.

I’ve just personally never seen or heard of anyone having muscle imbalances due to only doing the bench/squat/deadlift. There are several Russians including Vladimir Volkov and Alexander Faleev who only do the main lifts. They believe you only need to do supplemental work if you have some sort of health risk - which I’m understanding as some type of nagging injury or preventative maintenance, warm up type thing.

Now Sheiko implements chest flyes, which Ed Coan used for therapeutic purposes. I think those can be profitable done w/ very light weight and high reps.

I guess the point I was trying to make w/ the muscle imbalance stuff being garbage was for people to focus less on glitter and more on the gold. Some people can’t walk out of a gym w/o feeling extreme fatigue/pump/burn.

[quote]osu122975 wrote:

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

While I can be a fan of taking out the extra bodybuilding stuff, and am so in high frequency stuff which is how I have been training until very recently, I find your comment about muscle imbalances being garbage and never proven troubling and rather mistaken.

Muscle imbalances exist because of differences in leverage and limb length, even if they didn’t exist for the reasons most people have them (lack of mobility, tissue creep from lack of movement, lack of mental connection leading to an inability to activate the muscles, bad firing pattern, lack of dynamic flexibility, nerve damage, or any combination of several of these as they tend to feed on each other to some degree).

I recommend use of some ancillary chest work because it is quite likely that a) his chest is going to be much weaker than his triceps/shoulders b) his chest does not have the same physical preparedness and fatigue resistance that his highly trained shoulders and triceps have c) he will have a severely shoulder/tricep dominant pressing pattern which will leave a giant sticking point in his bench press at some point or other in the future, if it is not worked on.

It is advisable to address these points, which were generated by a lack of attention over years in olympic lifting (where they were not essential to good sport performance), as soon as possible in order to bring up his lifts as soon as possible. Same goes for lats, because half the problem for most people is feeling them work, contract, squeeze, tighten, all that stuff. The OP’s lats have probably been worked quite a bit with all the Oly stuff and chins, but it is still quite possible that the mind/muscle connection is weaker than it needs to be. In any case, lat work very rarely hurt anybody’s bench press (as in, never).[/quote]

The lats get work on the negative portion of the lift. You don’t necessarily need to pull in order to build the lats or work the lats.

You can also focus on doing half reps (chest to midpoint) and keep stress on the lower half of the bench to build pop off the chest. It works very well.

I’ve just personally never seen or heard of anyone having muscle imbalances due to only doing the bench/squat/deadlift. There are several Russians including Vladimir Volkov and Alexander Faleev who only do the main lifts. They believe you only need to do supplemental work if you have some sort of health risk - which I’m understanding as some type of nagging injury or preventative maintenance, warm up type thing.

Now Sheiko implements chest flyes, which Ed Coan used for therapeutic purposes. I think those can be profitable done w/ very light weight and high reps.

I guess the point I was trying to make w/ the muscle imbalance stuff being garbage was for people to focus less on glitter and more on the gold. Some people can’t walk out of a gym w/o feeling extreme fatigue/pump/burn.
[/quote]

I will agree with your last two sentences. However, an olympic lifter isn’t one of those types of people. The point is that if you can’t feel something work you can’t recruit it–this is the entire point behind Dave Tate’s gluteal amnesia. He couldn’t feel them working, and he had some latent imbalances, and the process fed on itself for years until he

The whole point is that muscle imbalances TURN INTO health risks if not addressed. There are literally tens of thousands of people who live this reality. However, the same mechanisms that help move muscle imbalances into health risks or injuries are also the mechanisms that prevent optimal performance–only sub-clinically.

Have you never thought that an olympic lifter with nearly zero chest training for years might have a latent injury risk if he decided to straight max the bench every day out of the blue? Or even 2x a week? That his overwhelming tricep and shoulder strength conditioning and non-existent pectoral conditioning might create a great situation for an injury due to compensation or over-taxing an unconditioned muscle? Nobody in their right minds goes and runs the 400m sprint without making sure the muscles involved are both conditioned and working properly. They especially don’t go running 400m sprints if they are bench pressers that never stretched their legs or did any work for them.

If people did either of these things they are asking for serious injury. This is the reason I suggested that he bench only 2x a week instead of every day, that he focus more on bench volume, and that he work on pectoral activation and assistance work specifically. 1) you need to be able to feel a muscle working to activate and recruit it properly 2) you need to condition a largely UNUSED muscle to the loads and frequency you are going to be asking it GRADUALLY 3) the least taxing way to do this is to use assistance exercises with lighter weights to get into things before transitioning into only bench press or daily maxing on the bench. I am very well aware that “pecs” don’t make a big powerlifting bench. They can, however, hold you back or injure you.

  1. Depending on a person’s leverages they might NEVER be able to bench well without dedicated assistance work. It’s cheap insurance, especially if like I suggested you are only doing it a couple times a week. It costs next to no recovery resources and is not going to be the thing that puts you over.

[quote]osu122975 wrote:

The lats get work on the negative portion of the lift. You don’t necessarily need to pull in order to build the lats or work the lats.
[/quote]

That’s true. You can even build them without ever really focusing on them. However it does help to be able to feel them work if you want to be able to recognize and correct a technique error. I stagnated on the bench press for years not because my lats were weak but because I couldn’t focus on them and feel what was happening to them. I had a strong back but I lacked the ability to feel them and as a result I could not put into practice what every body told me to do: squeeze the lats, use them as a springboard, drive out of them, etc. etc.

Doing some cheap isolation work for them with paused holds did wonders for my ability to recognize and correct technical flaws or coaching cues. As a result my bench shot up. I ALREADY had a strong back but I couldn’t use it because I didn’t have a good enough mind/muscle connection…because I had focused on “movements not muscles” for years exclusively.

A good program doesn’t just address training needs, it attempts to head off possible problems or future problems before they happen.