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Program for Beginner Gains?

Ya not gonna lie, I love Dan John lol. I got really into his articles, books and stuff for a while. so now I steal his terminology like “armor building.” He has a book called “never let go” which is pretty awesome too, worth reading as a young football player no doubt. Every time i read his stuff I wanna slap myself for not front squatting enough and not being stronger.

What do you guys think about Mike Rashid and CT Fletcher’s Philosophy of overtraining?

[quote]flipcollar wrote:

[quote]dzirkelb wrote:

[quote]flipcollar wrote:

[quote]BangkokHustle wrote:
I was using 85’s and yes I do need coaching because 5/3/1 isn’t really getting me anywhere.[/quote]

… a couple things. I didn’t mean you need coaching for programming needs. You need coaching on your form. 5/3/1 isn’t ‘dangerous’ by any means. Wendler came up with the program as a means to come back from injury. Which means, if anything, it’s one of the more reliably safe programs in existence.

Beyond this though, what do farmers walks have to do with the basics of 5/3/1? If you were running 5/3/1, then the farmers walks would have been implemented as assistance work. Assistance work should NEVER result in injury. It should be done using weights that essentially can’t hurt you.

Have you read the actual 5/3/1 manual? If that’s indeed the program you are running, you need to learn what is and what isn’t essential to the program. Don’t rely on internet forums for this information. Get it straight from Wendler.[/quote]

I’d have to disagree with the dangerous part, just because I have experience with it, and I’ll tell you why I disagree.

5/3/1 is dangerous to the inexperienced lifter, or the beginner, or someone with not proper form (which is all the above). I kept injurying myself on deadlift day for months upon months. I had lower back issues for 10 years, got it fixed, started the program, kept hurting my back again, blamed it on my back…wrong!

What I would do is try to get that last rep, or that last 2 reps, to break a PR, which is what 5/3/1 is all about. It felt awesome to pull, say, 385 for 8 one week, then 395 for 9 the next. You could see the progress, get really stoked for that final lit, etc.

problem is, in order to push out those last couple reps the form falls to just absolute shit. Notice, this is for inexperienced lifters, which I considered myself at the time (and still do, I can only pull around 5, squat around 5, bench around 330. But, more importantly, I’ve only been doing this for about 8 months. After 2 years, I’ll consider myself experienced).

So, I always cringe when I see newbies doing 5/3/1, because man, it works great, but the nature o the workout is pushing yourself past what you did last week, and for me at least, that meant failing on form.

Which is all the reason why the OP needs coaching on form, not program, maybe not even food, just form work. You may think your form is good, but it’s probably not. I know mine still needs work, but I haven’t been injured in 5 months, and all I see is gains!
[/quote]

from the 5/3/1 manual: “I hesitate to tell anyone to do anything to failure, because thatâ??s not what Iâ??m after. I wouldnâ??t prescribe this.”…“On the last set, however, youâ??ll have to reach further and grind it out â?? not to failure so youâ??re dead and canâ??t train the rest of the week, but it should take some life out of you.”

It sounds like you need to re-read the program if you believe that doing sets to the point of absolute shit form is what 5/3/1 is all about. Wendler states that rep PR’s are a goal, not a necessity. The problem here is not the program, it’s the implementation of shitty form that violates the spirit of the program. Pretty huge difference.[/quote]

That’s kind of exactly my point, bad execution of a program, couple that with bad form on later sets = disaster.

[quote]BangkokHustle wrote:
What do you guys think about Mike Rashid and CT Fletcher’s Philosophy of overtraining? [/quote]

I don’t think you have to worry about overtraining right now.

[quote]dzirkelb wrote:
That’s kind of exactly my point, bad execution of a program, couple that with bad form on later sets = disaster.
[/quote]

I feel as though bad execution of any program combined with bad form is going to have negative results. Do you agree with this, or feel that it is only 5/3/1 that has this issue?

Get yo self some trenbolone Boi!!! Nah I’m just messin, if you want to make some strength gains, I recommend you eat a lotttttt. Belive me. in my younger days there was this time for a month my lifts didn’t increase. I started eating a lot of steak and all the sudden my lifts started increasing again. Now I’m at a 690 pull boi!!!

[quote]Hub3rt wrote:
Get yo self some trenbolone Boi!!! Nah I’m just messin, if you want to make some strength gains, I recommend you eat a lotttttt. Belive me. in my younger days there was this time for a month my lifts didn’t increase. I started eating a lot of steak and all the sudden my lifts started increasing again. Now I’m at a 690 pull boi!!![/quote]

Where’s CSulli and his autism line of questions when you need him?

[quote]flipcollar wrote:

[quote]Hub3rt wrote:
Get yo self some trenbolone Boi!!! Nah I’m just messin, if you want to make some strength gains, I recommend you eat a lotttttt. Belive me. in my younger days there was this time for a month my lifts didn’t increase. I started eating a lot of steak and all the sudden my lifts started increasing again. Now I’m at a 690 pull boi!!![/quote]

Where’s CSulli and his autism line of questions when you need him?[/quote]
Lol, Beetlejuiced.

I just finished my freshman year of highschool an hour ago and now I can focus on eating and lifting weights for 2 months

[quote]BangkokHustle wrote:
I just finished my freshman year of highschool an hour ago and now I can focus on eating and lifting weights for 2 months[/quote]

A lot of good advice in this thread already my friend. My $.02, from someone that played HS through college, is to get your butt up the the highschool weight room and use the program they have the rest of the kids on (probably bigger/faster/stronger). That way you will build some rapport and get to know your future teammates & coaches. If they don’t have a program for the kids (highly doubt they don’t), run 5/3/1 and push a prowler/sled and/or sprint hills 3x week.

[quote]aspengc8 wrote:

[quote]BangkokHustle wrote:
I just finished my freshman year of highschool an hour ago and now I can focus on eating and lifting weights for 2 months[/quote]

A lot of good advice in this thread already my friend. My $.02, from someone that played HS through college, is to get your butt up the the highschool weight room and use the program they have the rest of the kids on (probably bigger/faster/stronger). That way you will build some rapport and get to know your future teammates & coaches. If they don’t have a program for the kids (highly doubt they don’t), run 5/3/1 and push a prowler/sled and/or sprint hills 3x week.[/quote]

I’ve done one of their workouts once and the coach was impressed by my strength. However I can tell that my own training is much more effective.

[quote]T3hPwnisher wrote:

[quote]dzirkelb wrote:
That’s kind of exactly my point, bad execution of a program, couple that with bad form on later sets = disaster.
[/quote]

I feel as though bad execution of any program combined with bad form is going to have negative results. Do you agree with this, or feel that it is only 5/3/1 that has this issue?[/quote]

Obviously it isn’t specific to 5/3/1, I just felt while I was doing that program that I always wanted to push myself for one or more reps, to get that rep PR. Even though you aren’t maxing a 1RM every week, you are sort of maxing every week with a weight / rep combo. Nothing wrong with that either, I just feel that the program shouldn’t be called all that safe because I’m positive there were other people like me who pushed too hard and kept hurting themselves.

If, however, I were to do the program again, I’d be fine because I know when to stop opposed to force another rep with bad form.

[quote]dzirkelb wrote:

Obviously it isn’t specific to 5/3/1, I just felt while I was doing that program that I always wanted to push myself for one or more reps, to get that rep PR. Even though you aren’t maxing a 1RM every week, you are sort of maxing every week with a weight / rep combo. Nothing wrong with that either, I just feel that the program shouldn’t be called all that safe because I’m positive there were other people like me who pushed too hard and kept hurting themselves.

If, however, I were to do the program again, I’d be fine because I know when to stop opposed to force another rep with bad form.[/quote]

I honestly feel as though you would have had this exact same issue with any program. It’s a user error/discipline issue to push oneself too hard when they shouldn’t, not a program issue.

It very well could be, but I know when I see this on a program for my last set:

set of 5 at 455 on deadlift

opposed to

set of 5 at 455 on deadlift, but do as many as you can

I don’t stop at 5.

All I’m saying is I did it, others will to. Telling someone to stop at 5 reps opposed to doing as many as you can “with good form” is likely to cause more injuries due to many factors, intensity, wanting a PR for reps, etc. This is powerlifting, we are huge people, we don’t bench 155 to failure to build mass, we push some serious weight, and that needs some serious “FFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUCCCCCCCCCKKKKKKKKKKK YYYYYYAAAAAAAAA” attitude!

Anyway, I’ve hijacked the thread a bit, sorry OP, I won’t put anymore on this thread. Good luck with getting strong! Eat more, lift often with good form, it will come.

[quote]dzirkelb wrote:
It very well could be, but I know when I see this on a program for my last set:

set of 5 at 455 on deadlift

opposed to

set of 5 at 455 on deadlift, but do as many as you can

I don’t stop at 5.

All I’m saying is I did it, others will to. Telling someone to stop at 5 reps opposed to doing as many as you can “with good form” is likely to cause more injuries due to many factors, intensity, wanting a PR for reps, etc. This is powerlifting, we are huge people, we don’t bench 155 to failure to build mass, we push some serious weight, and that needs some serious “FFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUCCCCCCCCCKKKKKKKKKKK YYYYYYAAAAAAAAA” attitude!

Anyway, I’ve hijacked the thread a bit, sorry OP, I won’t put anymore on this thread. Good luck with getting strong! Eat more, lift often with good form, it will come.[/quote]

I definitely agree with you that others will have the same user error. I am saying that this type of error manifests itself in many other programs as well. It’s a discipline/body awareness issue that unfortunately is fixed with experience.

I have known tons of kids that have injured themselves on Starting Strength because they simply lacked basic body awareness and pushed for reps that they had no business pushing for. Put them on 5/3/1 and it’ll happen. Put them on 20 Rep Squats and it’ll happen. Put them on Starting Strength and it’ll happen. Put them in pilates and it’ll happen.

[quote]T3hPwnisher wrote:
I definitely agree with you that others will have the same user error. I am saying that this type of error manifests itself in many other programs as well. It’s a discipline/body awareness issue that unfortunately is fixed with experience.

I have known tons of kids that have injured themselves on Starting Strength because they simply lacked basic body awareness and pushed for reps that they had no business pushing for. Put them on 5/3/1 and it’ll happen. Put them on 20 Rep Squats and it’ll happen. Put them on Starting Strength and it’ll happen. Put them in pilates and it’ll happen.
[/quote]

So how do you suggest fixing it?

Because for the most part I see people take extremes. Either they’re overly cautious and feel like they need to have perfect form before they can put any weight on the bar (and I mean, any weight at all)… or they’re overly aggressive, push too hard at the point that form is really bad, hurt themselves and end up with an injury that can possibly set them back for a very very long time.

Minor injuries and recovery issues are fine since they teach you your limits, but there are plenty of ways to truly hurt yourself.

Now, from what I hear, a lot of powerlifting gyms sort of have their own mentoring, to use the experienced folk to guide the younger ones to find that balance. On the other hand, most commercial gyms seem to be filled with ‘bros’ of one form or another, and when you have the occasional serious lifters, they generally get in, do what they need, and get out. Or those people lift at home because they don’t want to deal with the BS.

So a lot of people online at least seem to gravitate between those extremes without finding a middle ground for a long while.

[quote]LoRez wrote:
So how do you suggest fixing it?

Because for the most part I see people take extremes. Either they’re overly cautious and feel like they need to have perfect form before they can put any weight on the bar (and I mean, any weight at all)… or they’re overly aggressive, push too hard at the point that form is really bad, hurt themselves and end up with an injury that can possibly set them back for a very very long time.

Minor injuries and recovery issues are fine since they teach you your limits, but there are plenty of ways to truly hurt yourself.

Now, from what I hear, a lot of powerlifting gyms sort of have their own mentoring, to use the experienced folk to guide the younger ones to find that balance. On the other hand, most commercial gyms seem to be filled with ‘bros’ of one form or another, and when you have the occasional serious lifters, they generally get in, do what they need, and get out. Or those people lift at home because they don’t want to deal with the BS.

So a lot of people online at least seem to gravitate between those extremes without finding a middle ground for a long while.[/quote]

Personally, my method of fixing it would be to not consider injuries a bad thing. Everyone is so deathly terrified of getting injured, whereas I choose to be completely at peace with that reality and know that, no matter how badly I get hurt, I will still find a way to get stronger.

When I do get hurt, I just train around it.

I made a training Log it should be accessible through my Hub.

[quote]BangkokHustle wrote:
I made a training Log it should be accessible through my Hub.[/quote]

I found it. Answer my questions and you will have a suggested program posted to your log by the end of the day with an explanation of why I recommend that particular one for your situation.

The following day, we will cover how you are to eat. I do it differently.

You will no longer think of meals in terms of grams of macros.

You are going to think of meals in terms of pounds of food per sitting.

Be ready to work.

Just wanted to bump this thread and put this in here…

http://tnation.T-Nation.com/free_online_forum/blog_sports_body_training_performance_bodybuilding_log/bangkokhustles_training_log?id=6038585