Profiling

Off Topic Politics and World Issues
22

[quote]UtahLama wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:
Race? No.

You don’t police one segment of your citizens differently.

If I’m against AA because I actually want a color-blind society, letting people (applicants) be judged on individual merit, how could I possibly accept racial profiling?[/quote]

Because if two races comprise over 60% of the prison population, while only taking up less than 30% of the regular population ya kinda gotta give it a second look.

I don’t condone breaking anybodys civil rights…but if you see a group of MS-13 bangers walking down the road, chances are they got some shady shit planned at some point.

If you saw these broskis walking through your neighborhood…would you not want the cops to give them a 2nd/3rd/4th look?[/quote]

Your stats (assuming they are correct) prove blacks are suspected, targeted, detained and convicted more often than other races, not that they actually commit more crimes. Lots of crimes go undetected, unsolved or ignored, so you need to prove that the number of convictions correlates to the number of actual commissions before you can make the leap you want to make.

Also, statistics apparently also show the chance of getting wrongfully suspected, targeted, detained and convicted increases substantially if you are black:

http://www.innocenceproject.org/Content/DNA_Exonerations_Nationwide.php

http://www.saveservices.org/2013/04/sixty-three-percent-of-persons-exonerated-are-black/

Moreover, I would be wary of any individual who is a member of a violent criminal organization/gang, regardless of their race.

My personal experience watching criminals get sentenced for several years day-in-and-day-out is the two things convicted felons and particularly the violent felons had in common more than any other–more so than race–was that they were mostly poor and mostly uneducated.

23

[quote]UtahLama wrote:
1)According to the US Bureau of Justice Statistics (BJS) non-Hispanic blacks accounted for 39.4% of the total prison and jail population in 2009.

1a)According to the 2010 census of the US Census Bureau blacks (including Hispanic blacks) comprised 13.6% of the US population.

2)Hispanics (of all races) were 20.6% of the total jail and prison population in 2009. Hispanics comprised 16.3% of the US population according to the 2010 US census.

If an ethnic group commits crimes with percentages far in excess of your population percentage.

You gon get profiled.[/quote]

Aren’t like over 50% of those incarcerations due to bullshit drug charges? Lets not act like they are all out committing violent crimes which is how police officers act when they stop them.

24

[quote]Chushin wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:
From a purely statistical standpoint, police are correct in profiling along racial lines since there is an extremely strong correlation between minorities and crime that simply does not exist with whites.
[/quote]
Hair-splitting perhaps, but I often get the sense that the “profiling” is more a product of the cop’s own bigotry than it is of any statistical analysis.

[quote]DBCooper wrote:
The high crime rates amongst minorities is a MINORITY problem, not a PROFILING problem.[/quote]

Again, I take your point, but one can’t completely ignore the roll of an (admittedly greatly improved) racist society.[/quote]

I agree that often times the police are profiling along racial lines simply because they are racists. But from an institutional standpoint, meaning that as a police department policy, it makes some sense to profile along racial lines. Like I said earlier, the job of the police is to prevent crimes as well as investigate ones that have already happened. Since it’s appropriate to put more police in areas in which statistics show crime is more likely to occur and it is appropriate to commit more police to the types of crimes that occur the most frequently, why is it not appropriate to have police investigate the people that are more likely to commit crimes as well? And when it comes to determining those “types”, the fact is that there is an extremely strong correlation between minorities and crime rates. There isn’t anything inherent about minorities that makes them more likely to commit crimes. There’s nothing in the genetic code of a minority that makes them fundamentally more likely to commit a crime. There simply is a strong correlation between race and crime, just like there is a strong correlation between poverty and crime or certain neighborhoods and crime.

I also fully acknowledge that a racist society is to blame for some crimes on the parts of minorities. But I sense a victimization complex when I hear people assign blame to that more than to the person committing the crime. There are plenty of people out there who have been the victim of racism, on both personal and institutional levels, who have not committed crimes. For instance, I would argue that virtually all black men in this country have been the victim of racism to varying degrees at one time or another in their life. And yet, “only” 1 out of every 8 adult black males is a convicted felon. I don’t see a correlation there.

But it seems to me that minorities tend to overwhelmingly blame these high crime rates on racism. It removes personal responsibility from the equation almost entirely. Crime becomes minimized, criminality becomes a foregone conclusion to many (“why NOT commit that crime since The Man is going to nail me for some bullshit anyways?”) and it becomes more easily justifiable (“fuck the white man, I’m gonna get mine and commit this crime for my personal benefit as a way of evening the score.”). When this happens, it starts a vicious cycle in which the perpetrator has little to no responsibility for an action that, in reality, is completely avoidable and 100% in the hands of the individual.

When that happens, we have what we see many times from those who rant and rave against profiling. Profiling is simply the symptom of a larger problem. It’s like bitching and moaning about the selection of wigs at a store when you just lost all your hair from chemotherapy treatments used to combat the lung cancer you developed after smoking for decades despite the staggering amount of scientific research linking smoking to an uncountable number of health risks.

25

You, “red blooded Americans.” What about the Constitution?

I’ll just point some things out for you gents… You are already taking some things for granted, Professor already pointed one out, but also…

Think about how statistics are gathered, do you think crime rates are not exacerbated by profiling? Really, think about it.

Maybe some of you are incapable of empathy towards other phenotypes, maybe you fail to imagine very real situations for people who are profiled… Like honestly worrying about family being harassed by police on their way home from work for having a certain skin color and living in a particular neighborhood…

Maybe you worry about your child being harassed because he gets lumped in with every other criminal in the profiling eye of a police officer. Or, maybe you have a father in law, or brother in law. I just don’t understand how people who supposedly love the country and the Constitution try to keep a straight face and not see the problems built into racial profiling.

Racial profiling is a broken solution to a problem the U.S. brought onto itself by taking advantage of race and wages, basically as long as the country has existed. Pretending like this is some purely pragmatic solution and leaving it to law enforcement/ police officers to interpret means racist incidents are virtually a must, profiling itself is an ambiguous practice and racism is up for interpretation.

Pay attention because I’ll only explain this once…

Racial profiling itself is a racist act… I think this is a simple truth, police go into neighborhoods and have a certain target group based on phenotype and language.

Now, anybody is capable of doing this. Be it a gung ho police officer who’s out to serve justice and follows the law to the letter, to the vigilante cop who likes killing Mexicans, there were some Minute Men who did this. Just look it up. The law doesn’t distinguish who is doing the job… I imagine the gung ho cop is just going to target trouble makers. The Minute Man vigilante is going to f$#@ with people because he enjoys it…

I don’t like the idea of empowering that vigilante racist cop. Neither should any of you.

There is no difference between a crusading, latino hating minute man cop, and someone who is genuinely trying to enforce the law… Trying to figure out the intent, or what is in an officers heart when you are being profiled is impossible to prove in court. But, that’s good ol American Justice.

Another ham handed effort that history will scoff at.

26

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

Am I decrying the profiling of white serial killers? No.[/quote]

No…but you are also NOT tasking all white people to police those white serial killers as if it is their responsibility.

27

semantics schemantics

In truth, since most of our learning ability is in the form of pattern recognition, you can’t really argue against profiling within reason.

Should you look twice at someone who looks suspicious within context? Sure.

Should you randomly follow me and run the plates on my lincoln town car whilst I’m kicking it on 70 mph cruise control and catch me for my no insurance for no other reason than I’m in a make/model favored by black people? Fuck yourselves.

Couldn’t park that car and get high anywhere in houston without the police creeping up on me!

28

[quote]lucasa wrote:

[quote]UtahLama wrote:

If you saw these broskis walking through your neighborhood…would you not want the cops to give them a 2nd/3rd/4th look?[/quote]

The gang is estimated to have 30,000 to 50,000 members and associate members worldwide, 8,000 to 10,000 of whom reside in the United States

So, of the 160 million-some ‘broskis’ walking around, 52 million are hispanic. Of the 52 million hispanics only 10K of them are MS-13 gang members. That ‘hispanic’ = ‘MS-13’ or even gang member is pretty poor.

Like Prof. X points out, it’s like describing white people as serial killers and mass murders. I’d rather the police profiled the shit out of and picked up Wade Michael Page than waste a second of someone like Satwant Singh Kaleka’s time.[/quote]

That’s ONE HISPANIC gang among 1000’s

Just using them as an example.

29

[quote]xXSeraphimXx wrote:

[quote]UtahLama wrote:
1)According to the US Bureau of Justice Statistics (BJS) non-Hispanic blacks accounted for 39.4% of the total prison and jail population in 2009.

1a)According to the 2010 census of the US Census Bureau blacks (including Hispanic blacks) comprised 13.6% of the US population.

2)Hispanics (of all races) were 20.6% of the total jail and prison population in 2009. Hispanics comprised 16.3% of the US population according to the 2010 US census.

If an ethnic group commits crimes with percentages far in excess of your population percentage.

You gon get profiled.[/quote]

Aren’t like over 50% of those incarcerations due to bullshit drug charges? Lets not act like they are all out committing violent crimes which is how police officers act when they stop them.[/quote]

Source?

You realize that most of the violent crime stems from drug sales/turf wars…right?

30

[quote]UtahLama wrote:
Source?

You realize that most of the violent crime stems from drug sales/turf wars…right?[/quote]

Do you realize that if you profile a certain group as “criminals” and look at them more for it, more of those same people will be arrested even if crime is similar across other races?

Arrest records do NOT show stats of the crimes actually being committed.

IT ONLY SHOWS WHO GOT CAUGHT.

31

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]UtahLama wrote:
Source?

You realize that most of the violent crime stems from drug sales/turf wars…right?[/quote]

IT ONLY SHOWS WHO GOT CAUGHT.[/quote]

I posted prison population scales…I cannot help it if they got caught, they were still committing a crime.

I’m sorry that you feel like you get profiled in Houston (which I think you have mentioned in the past) all I am saying is, if somebody looks suspicious simply take another look at them.

If they are not doing anything wrong, leave them alone.

32

[quote]UtahLama wrote:

I posted prison population scales…I cannot help it if they got caught, they were still committing a crime.

I’m sorry that you feel like you get profiled in Houston (which I think you have mentioned in the past) all I am saying is, if somebody looks suspicious simply take another look at them.

If they are not doing anything wrong, leave them alone.[/quote]

FACT:

If you look at someone more, you will see them do more wrong.

Profiling does not mean crime is decreasing.

It only means you caught more of the people who look the same.

33

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]UtahLama wrote:

I posted prison population scales…I cannot help it if they got caught, they were still committing a crime.

I’m sorry that you feel like you get profiled in Houston (which I think you have mentioned in the past) all I am saying is, if somebody looks suspicious simply take another look at them.

If they are not doing anything wrong, leave them alone.[/quote]

FACT:

If you look at someone more, you will see them do more wrong.

Profiling does not mean crime is decreasing.

It only means you caught more of the people who look the same.[/quote]

Fair enough, but they were still committing crimes…no?

34

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

There is a difference between data driven and racist. That is what DB was saying, and that is where I agree with him.[/quote]

No, merely your racism is data-driven.

35

[quote]UtahLama wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]UtahLama wrote:

I posted prison population scales…I cannot help it if they got caught, they were still committing a crime.

I’m sorry that you feel like you get profiled in Houston (which I think you have mentioned in the past) all I am saying is, if somebody looks suspicious simply take another look at them.

If they are not doing anything wrong, leave them alone.[/quote]

FACT:

If you look at someone more, you will see them do more wrong.

Profiling does not mean crime is decreasing.

It only means you caught more of the people who look the same.[/quote]

Fair enough, but they were still committing crimes…no?

[/quote]

maybe, maybe not.

There are too many people being released due to dna testing lately who are minorities to think they ALL committed what they were convicted of.

White people may commit the same number of certain crimes…but if you aren’t looking at them…

36

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

There is a difference between data driven and racist. That is what DB was saying, and that is where I agree with him.[/quote]

No, merely your racism is data-driven.
[/quote]

Which is the very definition of “institutional racism”.

It seems to be blatantly supported…while “AA” is treated like Satan.

37

http://www.innocenceproject.org/Content/DNA_Exonerations_Nationwide.php

[quote]Races of the 309 exonerees:

191 African Americans
90 Caucasians
21 Latinos
2 Asian American
5 whose race is unknown[/quote]

Uhm…Holy shit. All of those people in prison who did not commit a crime…and that is all we know so far?

Yet no one sees a problem yet?

Our judicial system is largely flawed…because it relies on the same social biases to judge criminals…because of the JURY.

That is why you can’t use arrest records to ascribe criminal intent to any one race.

38

One aspect often overlooked:

It is the job of the police (or at least they think it is) to COERCE a confession out of the suspect. If 25% of these confessions are found to be false because of this…even using data about arrests to ascribe criminal intent to a race is…well…“SUSPECT”.

39

50% of homicide victims are black.

52% of known race homicide offenders are black

But, like whites, blacks are far more often killed by their own race. I think we’re looking at high 80-to low-mid 90% depending on race. I couldn’t find the data with a brief search, though I’m sure I’ve seen it before on the FBI site.

So, yes. It’s undeniable that about 13% of the population, as a population, has a tragically high homicide rate.

But ultimately, if you’re a white guy, you’d want white guys profiled more, no? You’re far more likely to be killed by a white, as a white.

40

I won’t go as far to say that Race is not a factor but I think a bigger factor would be age and socioeconomic