T Nation

Profiling


#1

Useful law enforceforce tactic or civil rights violation?

Lets debate? Who would like to kick it off?


#2

[quote]NorCal916 wrote:
Useful law enforceforce tactic or civil rights violation?

Lets debate? Who would like to kick it off?[/quote]

I don’t have a problem with it. From a purely statistical standpoint minorities are much more likely to commit crimes than whites. Since law enforcement’s obligation is not only to investigate crimes but to prevent them as well, I don’t see why it’s wrong to profile minorities in some way. That doesn’t mean that blacks should just be dragged out of their cars like something out of Boyz N the Hood.

The police should use discretion. Unfortunately, they don’t always use discretion. But if minorities have a problem with profiling, they should look at the members of their communities that are out committing crimes to the point where huge swaths of their population in this country are being incarcerated at rates that far surpass those of other ethnic groups.


#3

Oh, and…uh, in before the shitstorm.


#4

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

[quote]NorCal916 wrote:
Useful law enforceforce tactic or civil rights violation?

Lets debate? Who would like to kick it off?[/quote]

I don’t have a problem with it. From a purely statistical standpoint minorities are much more likely to commit crimes than whites. Since law enforcement’s obligation is not only to investigate crimes but to prevent them as well, I don’t see why it’s wrong to profile minorities in some way. That doesn’t mean that blacks should just be dragged out of their cars like something out of Boyz N the Hood.

The police should use discretion. Unfortunately, they don’t always use discretion. But if minorities have a problem with profiling, they should look at the members of their communities that are out committing crimes to the point where huge swaths of their population in this country are being incarcerated at rates that far surpass those of other ethnic groups.[/quote]

Pretty much sums it all up.

X2 before the storm. I dunno why this is even a problem for people except for PC bullshit, race baiters, and the dumbasses in the police that can’t use discretion and do their job quietly but have to do stupid shit. …ok, so i know exactly why this is a problem i guess…


#5

[quote]NorCal916 wrote:
Useful law enforceforce tactic or civil rights violation?

[/quote]

I think it is both, depends on who is doing the profiling and how it is being carried out.

A bigot is a bigot, is a bigot. Whether or not a bigot uses profiling isn’t going to change that.

When I was in college, there was an outbreak of rapes in the North End. From what I understand they believed it was a small group of white males. We had friends in the North End. Every time we walked back to our car we were followed by a couple of dudes with baseball bats…

Were they profiling us? Damn straight. Was is a violation of my Rights? Nah, I don’t think so. And seeing it was the North End, it isn’t like these cats couldn’t have just beaten our asses and left us for dead on the banks of the Charles, they could have, and the Cops wouldn’t have done shit. It was the North End, and my buddy and I weren’t connected people.


#6

Coop nailed it.


#7

As much as I detest 98% of his monosyllabic drivel - DB got this one right.


#8

[quote]drunkpig wrote:
As much as I detest 98% of his monosyllabic drivel - DB got this one right. [/quote]
Technically his post would be like enneacontahectosyllabic or something like that.


#9

[quote]DBCooper wrote:
if minorities have a problem with profiling, they should look at the members of their communities that are out committing crimes …[/quote]

“My community”?

I personally live in a mostly white neighborhood with a Hispanic neighbor. Can you tell me why it is my responsibility to “police” someone else just because we are the same skin color?

What you just wrote is only accepted because you tossed it at minorities.

Is it YOUR responsibility to end the “mostly white” serial killings across the country?


#10

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:
if minorities have a problem with profiling, they should look at the members of their communities that are out committing crimes …[/quote]

“My community”?

I personally live in a mostly white neighborhood with a Hispanic neighbor. Can you tell me why it is my responsibility to “police” someone else just because we are the same skin color?

What you just wrote is only accepted because you tossed it at minorities.

Is it YOUR responsibility to end the “mostly white” serial killings across the country?[/quote]

I don’t know that DBCooper said or meant anything about skin color wrt ‘your community’.

Gary, IN for about the last decade, has consistently had one of the highest murder rates in the country. Mayors have repeatedly pointed out that if you take away all of the murders where the victim knew the attacker, there were only a handful of murders in Gary every year. Gary was safe as long as you didn’t live there. The case is similar on the south side of Chicago.


#11

1)According to the US Bureau of Justice Statistics (BJS) non-Hispanic blacks accounted for 39.4% of the total prison and jail population in 2009.

1a)According to the 2010 census of the US Census Bureau blacks (including Hispanic blacks) comprised 13.6% of the US population.

2)Hispanics (of all races) were 20.6% of the total jail and prison population in 2009. Hispanics comprised 16.3% of the US population according to the 2010 US census.

If an ethnic group commits crimes with percentages far in excess of your population percentage.

You gon get profiled.


#12

Race? No.

You don’t police one segment of your citizens differently.

If I’m against AA because I actually want a color-blind society, letting people (applicants) be judged on individual merit, how could I possibly accept racial profiling?


#13

[quote]Sloth wrote:
Race? No.

You don’t police one segment of your citizens differently.

If I’m against AA because I actually want a color-blind society, letting people (applicants) be judged on individual merit, how could I possibly accept racial profiling?[/quote]

Because if two races comprise over 60% of the prison population, while only taking up less than 30% of the regular population ya kinda gotta give it a second look.

I don’t condone breaking anybodys civil rights…but if you see a group of MS-13 bangers walking down the road, chances are they got some shady shit planned at some point.

If you saw these broskis walking through your neighborhood…would you not want the cops to give them a 2nd/3rd/4th look?


#14

[quote]Sloth wrote:
Race? No.

You don’t police one segment of your citizens differently.

If I’m against AA because I actually want a color-blind society, letting people (applicants) be judged on individual merit, how could I possibly accept racial profiling?[/quote]

Well, I agree with you. On the other hand, following statistics because they happen to be accurate representations of real life is not racially motivated, on the other hand it is decried as racial profiling. As a scientist I was taught to follow the statistics. Follow the data, follow the data, follow the data. It’s drilled into your head because that’s how you make the most efficient decisions.

Otherwise the end result is an absurdity: 4 year old getting patted down by TSA.

For example: I would not posit the Israelis making security decisions at the airport based on their well founded intelligence and data appears to be racially motivated. I would instead simply call that “smart”.

In one sense you could even argue that it pushes the post-racial ideal (something I think we desperately need to realize) forward in that you are no longer concerned about racist motivations, just stopping criminals and preventing–where practicable without stepping on civil liberties–crime.

There is a difference between data driven and racist. That is what DB was saying, and that is where I agree with him.


#15

Fine, let’s not use individual merit in our legal dealings. But, let’s not say we oppose Affirmative Action because we supposedly believe people should be judged on their own merit.


#16

[quote]UtahLama wrote:

If you saw these broskis walking through your neighborhood…would you not want the cops to give them a 2nd/3rd/4th look?[/quote]

The gang is estimated to have 30,000 to 50,000 members and associate members worldwide, 8,000 to 10,000 of whom reside in the United States

So, of the 160 million-some ‘broskis’ walking around, 52 million are hispanic. Of the 52 million hispanics only 10K of them are MS-13 gang members. That ‘hispanic’ = ‘MS-13’ or even gang member is pretty poor.

Like Prof. X points out, it’s like describing white people as serial killers and mass murders. I’d rather the police profiled the shit out of and picked up Wade Michael Page than waste a second of someone like Satwant Singh Kaleka’s time.


#17

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#18

[quote]Chushin wrote:
I am really torn on this one.

Intellectually, I agree with the stats argument, and have made it myself at times.

At the same time, being a white guy with Arab features (my mom’s side), it can get REALLY annoying traveling home to the US sometimes. The Japanese cops single me out for that “special search” because I’m so much more likely to be a terrorist than the Japanese getting on the plane, and US immigration pulls me over to “chat” because I look middle-eastern. Interestingly, when I travel with my Japanese wife, the former still happens, but not the latter. I guess “traveling alone” raises the odds of me being a friend of Osama’s.

On a more daily level, being white in Japan brings all sorts of fun preconceptions and “special” treatment situations my way.

I guess if I have to stake a position, I chose to let the stats argument win, but I think that those of you who have never lived as a minority (20+ years here now) would be hard-pressed to truly understand what it’s like to always be singled out as “the more likely bad guy.”[/quote]

I can seriously sympathize with you. I’m not in that situation and it is unlikely I will be, at least for the foreseeable future, but this is a difficult situation and there is absolutely NOT a clean solution to anything. It’s going to be messy any which way unfortunately :(.


#19

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:
if minorities have a problem with profiling, they should look at the members of their communities that are out committing crimes …[/quote]

“My community”?

I personally live in a mostly white neighborhood with a Hispanic neighbor. Can you tell me why it is my responsibility to “police” someone else just because we are the same skin color?

What you just wrote is only accepted because you tossed it at minorities.

Is it YOUR responsibility to end the “mostly white” serial killings across the country?[/quote]

Am I decrying the profiling of white serial killers? No. If I were sitting on my white soapbox saying that it’s unfair that the police profile white males when looking for serial killers you would be entirely logical to say that perhaps white men killing people is the real problem, not the profiling of white men in general. Serial killers are certainly a problem, but they also account for a statistically insignificant amount of the overall crime that exists in this country. The same cannot be said about minorities and crime. The statistical evidence proves beyond a doubt that most crimes are committed by minorities and there is a much, much larger chance that any minority chosen at random is a criminal than if the same were done with whites.

People who decry the profiling of minorities should ask the bigger question here, which is why so many minorities commit crimes compared to whites. If the statistical evidence were much more balanced, instead of a situation in which 1 out of 8 black men were convicted felons, profiling simply would not occur. From a purely statistical standpoint, police are correct in profiling along racial lines since there is an extremely strong correlation between minorities and crime that simply does not exist with whites. The high crime rates amongst minorities is a MINORITY problem, not a PROFILING problem.


#20

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