T Nation

Producing Consistent Results


#1

So when on cycles that last long enough to see results stagnate - often cycles of at LEAST 12wks, i have a couple of basic theories and practices that will assist a better continuation of results. They are not 'invented' by me but i wanted to write down my variations or experiences with them.

The first is simple, adapt calories to your new bodyweight.
When bulking (or cutting - do the opposite) one starts out with a good surplus of kcals when they start the cycle.. some can gain a good 30lbs by week 8 or so (commonly 15-20lbs) - of course due to the increased anabolism but in a large part due to (water retention and) the stricter and more plentiful eating and often better quality training (there is nothing that lights a fire under someone's butt than having them spend a few hundred bucks on gear that month..).
So one major reason that results slow or stop is not quite as complicated as believed. It is just adaptation.

So in laymans terms, after x amount of weeks, the body has adapted to the increased calories by raising metabolism/BMR - primarily through an increase in lean tissue. So when 4000kcal was enough to gain before, it isn't now - the answer? Increase calories. Simple. Keep pushing... keep pushing harder and harder. It is very common for novice and intermediate level trainees to think they need to motivate themselves and maintain that motivation to push and they will achieve. In reality, while of course you do need to do that - you also need to push consistently harder.
I think of it as terminal velocity. You don't slow, you don't even maintain speed (read: Effort) - you keep getting faster and faster.

The second thing to try would be to change it up.
There are one or two ways to go about this and the more you do the better IME but i will get to that.
So i have read a lot of accounts where people on longer cycles - in order to avoid stagnation of gains and having read that they should change the compound used - simply change the ester of Test base they use - or Nandrolone or whatever.. i am not sure how that is supposed to make any difference. The ester change will only affect the timing of the drugs effect - and when dosing in the fashion i am talking about* frontloads are very common which greatly reduce the absorption kinetics of the ester in question.

*As in cycles that are frontloaded with different drugs every 4-6 weeks or so - what used to be called 'blitz's' back in the 'diamond pattern' days.

ANYWAY... So the first option or choice is to change the drug.. It would be something that is compatible with your goals and the stage of your cycle/training phase. So you may (a) switch Primobolan with Boldenone or Masteron with Trenbolone as two examples of following the same type of goal but with a different drug in order to avoid stagnation - or you may switch from a mass and size phase to one where 'lean' anabolism and strength are more important where you may (b) drop the Dbol and Deca in favour for Eq and Tren or Eq and Stan. Whatever.

In all honesty when i have done something like in the examples (a) during a long cycle, i haven't noticed a massive jump in gains - but i do notice physique changes which TBH is all you get when using for very long periods with no breaks - which leads me to the second option.

You take a break. Not PCT and coming off, etc.. just a 'cruise'. I personally think it is a great idea for any cycle lasting over 12 weeks (as a very tight minimum length) one utilises a short 1-2 week cruise at some mid point.

So lets say you are running 14 weeks of x (base), y (anabolic) and z (oral). You will likely experience a drop in results after say.. 8-9 weeks. So simply drop drugs y and z for week(s) 8 and/or 9 and reduce the base drug (Testosterone you say?) 'x' to levels that you feel comfortable at - this is specific to the individual IMO (Dante say's 400mg/wk Test but that is high for most) i have found anywhere from 100-300mg of total drug dose during the cruise plenty.

So good cruise drugs are of course Test, Masteron and then you have AM orals when we begin to veer into 'bridge' territory. Not a problem IMO, but remember the aim is to have a short break OFF the drugs - not on the drugs but avoiding suppression, we want less activity of the drugs themselves.

If you are using long esters and are on 1-2g/wk of drugs.. then you will likely want to take at least 2 weeks off - as 1g of Test E will take about that (2wks) to drop to levels <300mg (iirc).
But that means you could do the 2 week break with little to NO AAS needed. I have done it and it isn't 'painful' at all. The first week you feel the same, the second week you feel normal - and i might suggest 100mg or so of Test that week.

So i personally find that the break (as i first read about by dante in a slightly different context) during a longer cycle seems to allow the receptors to re-sensitize to the hormones and after a mere 2 weeks i am ready to gain again.

My choice is to do a combination of all the above.. so i like to run a drug for 4-6 or so weeks, have a 2 week break and restart with a different compound.

Hope it helps one of those who are still using longer cycles - or not coming off (in which case you prolly do all this anyway).

:slightly_smiling:


#2

interesting, good post


#3

wow, good read!


#4

Someone here mentioned (BR i think), about increased myostatin activity after the 8 week mark, but it drops back to normal again after a few weeks. So it may be one of the reason that gains tend to be slow down from week 9-12 for me. The obvious solution would be staying on longer, like most pros. But I like you idea of a little cruise. It is a much better option than PCT. I also think that after 8 weeks or so of hard training, the body needs a bit of break too.
10 weeks cycle + 4 weeks cruise + 10 weeks cycle + PCT sounds like a nice “cycle”
Reduced training during the cruise, and focuse on recovery, physio work etc

100mg test + 200 eq is a nice cruising dose IMO
Masteron is a bit androgenic IMO
I would avoid orals for very long cycles, as it unfavourable on the liver and blood lipids.
Just my preference really.

p.s
I feel that the receptor downregulation myth is more of a “myostatin upregulation” issue. The human body try to reach homostatis, and achieves it thru may pathways.


#5

A nice informative post. Thanks man


#6

No doubt.

I don’t know what ‘downgrading’ is… as in i don’t know the action/reaction factors involved - whether it is a prolonged non-pulsatile stimulation of the AR, high doses or an increase in myostatin. As with most other things in these regards, i would expect it to be a combination of those and likely some other factors too.

You are most definitely right in saying that it works due to recuperative reasons too - in exactly the same manner as a de-load period. And that is exactly how it is approached, but in all aspects - Chemistry, training, prehab, supplements and diet.

Again, this is the exact principle behind Dante’s ‘cruises’ and how i came to modify that in a very small way to my own use of the drugs.
I began with B+C and it evolved to match my own training for goals more specifically.

As for Masteron being too androgenic - what does that mean to you? I mean… why is that an issuee in your mind?
The point for me is purely to drop the amount of androgen in the body, while providing enough (via AAS or HCG and SERM) to support nomal function and a minimal increase in catabolism (i personally have no problem in dropping all the drugs [except ancillaries] for a week - it goes barely unnoticed and allows levels to drop much quicker to attain the desired dose ASAP) in order to give the system a rest - that’s all. I do not consider a dose of 200-300mg Test+Mast at 66:33 or 50:50 to be excessive in that regard - and much more pleasant than Test only IMO.
If it is related to the androgenic:anabolic ratio of Masteron compared to Test’s 100:100 - i see what you mean, as it would technically have more activity at the AR. But not only do i consider the A:A ratio severely lacking but the dose is what is important here, and as long as the comparative drop in dose is large enough, it will be effective IMO.

But yeah… Eq is a decent one just to help maintain an anabolic environment. :slight_smile:


#7

[quote]mephistopheles wrote:
Someone here mentioned (BR i think), about increased myostatin activity after the 8 week mark, but it drops back to normal again after a few weeks. So it may be one of the reason that gains tend to be slow down from week 9-12 for me. The obvious solution would be staying on longer, like most pros. But I like you idea of a little cruise. It is a much better option than PCT. I also think that after 8 weeks or so of hard training, the body needs a bit of break too.
10 weeks cycle + 4 weeks cruise + 10 weeks cycle + PCT sounds like a nice “cycle”
Reduced training during the cruise, and focuse on recovery, physio work etc

100mg test + 200 eq is a nice cruising dose IMO
Masteron is a bit androgenic IMO
I would avoid orals for very long cycles, as it unfavourable on the liver and blood lipids.
Just my preference really.

p.s
I feel that the receptor downregulation myth is more of a “myostatin upregulation” issue. The human body try to reach homostatis, and achieves it thru may pathways. [/quote]

Here you go - linked from another poster on AFB:

As for the ‘if Myostatin is inhibited after 8-10 weeks’ it clearly isn’t that simple is it? ‘most pro’s’ do NOT stay on high doses of the same drug year round - not the ones who are trained by good trainers (Palumbo, Rea etc) as it is simply NOT the most effective way to use the drugs - this is common knowledge by now - and it has been for decades as is the very reason for diamond patterns, cycles and now blast and cruise.
As i mentioned, the changing of compounds is something that has been played around with for years - and ‘cruising’ or short lower dosed breaks clearly work for many - with cycles being the original protocol to avoid diminishing returns.

You are working on the belief that cycling came first, and staying on came after - it was the other way around as staying on simply led to a significant reduction in results and a severe increase in serious side effects.

If you have stayed on a cycle for 6 months or more you would know that results don’t start to ‘pick up’ after a certain time due to possible myostatin inhibition - they stagnate endlessly IME (of course manipulated by diet and rest etc… but not like cycling or breaks does for you).

I am of course NOT saying the study is BS - quite the opposite, just that there is clearly more going on and the answer is NOT to just stay on to ‘ride it out’ (as is the opinion of the poster who linked the article in the first place!)

JMO :wink:


#8

Masteron is a fine drug, I just felt that it gave me a bit more hairloss and oily skin, compared to EQ that’s all.


#9

Brook, do you typically run cycle after cycle after cycle (with cruises ie, long term user) or run say two 6 weekers and then PCT?


#10

great post B

thanks for the good share


#11

[quote]NZ RABBIT wrote:
Brook, do you typically run cycle after cycle after cycle (with cruises ie, long term user) or run say two 6 weekers and then PCT?[/quote]

ATM i run 4wk ‘cycles’ with 2 week breaks - which might include no more than 750iu HCG and Tamoxifen.


#12

Excellent post, though it seems to come as standard for you these days ^^

3am here off to bed lol but very good read.


#13

[quote] Brook wrote:
NZ RABBIT wrote:
Brook, do you typically run cycle after cycle after cycle (with cruises ie, long term user) or run say two 6 weekers and then PCT?

ATM i run 4wk ‘cycles’ with 2 week breaks - which might include no more than 750iu HCG and Tamoxifen.[/quote]

So you have no plans for an extended PCT period anytime soon?

Do you think you’ll try Bill’s low dose masteron protocol during any cruises?

Thanks in advance Brook


#14

[quote]NZ RABBIT wrote:
Brook wrote:
NZ RABBIT wrote:
Brook, do you typically run cycle after cycle after cycle (with cruises ie, long term user) or run say two 6 weekers and then PCT?

ATM i run 4wk ‘cycles’ with 2 week breaks - which might include no more than 750iu HCG and Tamoxifen.

So you have no plans for an extended PCT period anytime soon?

Do you think you’ll try Bill’s low dose masteron protocol during any cruises?

Thanks in advance Brook[/quote]

I do actually. I am building up (psychologically and physiologically) to exactly that. I am increasing the ‘off’ periods over time.

The reason i am doing it this way is because i have the time and i have the means. I am attempting to make the final transition less painful.

So essentially my plan is as follows:

-Continue with my blasts but never longer than 4weeks. Reduce max doses on the blasts.
-Extend the ‘cruises’ by 1 week each term/time, until i am naturally in a cyclic phase.
-Run Tamoxifen throughout the Cruises.
-Add HCG non-stop, from 3x/wk to 1-2x over time.
-Reduce the cruise doses.

The way i see it, while it will take longer than just biting the bullet, it should be more comfortable and hopefully effective. I haven’t read of coming off in this way - but it makes sense in my mind - maybe Bill or BBB can spot some fundamental flaws.

A lot of it is just playing out as it happens and i will deal with any issues as they arise.

JJ


#15

Have you considered using peptides as part of your PCT. Maybe with some overlap, so that you are chemically enhanced all the time?

for example

week
1 AAS + HGH + IGF-1LR3 + IGF-1Ec
2 AAS + HGH + IGF-1LR3 + IGF-1Ec
3 AAS + HGH + IGF-1LR3 + IGF-1Ec
4 AAS
5 AAS
6 AAS
7 AAS + HGH + IGF-1LR3 + IGF-1Ec
8 AAS + HGH + IGF-1LR3 + IGF-1Ec
9 AAS + HGH + IGF-1LR3 + IGF-1Ec
10 AAS
11 AAS
12 AAS
13 IGF-1LR3 + IGF-1Ec + HGH + PCT
14 IGF-1LR3 + IGF-1Ec + HGH + PCT
15 IGF-1LR3 + IGF-1Ec + HGH + PCT
16 IGF-1LR3 + IGF-1Ec + HGH + PCT

HGH is optional
AAS is cruise mode in week 6 and 7, and switch compounds in 8-12.


#16

Good idea. Although you do realise that this thread isn’t really about my cycling - just tricks to keep results coming rather than stagnating. Although i don’t mind using myself as an example sometimes if it helps others - i am nice like that…

You are right though, i have seen a lot of anecdotal ‘evidence’ suggesting IGF is very useful when trying to recover - and GH speaks for itself IMO.

I once tried Slin during an off period - it filled me up nice but of course added fat. Slin and no AAS is NOT a good idea! :wink:


#17

I think slin is a bit outdated in the modern anaboic stack. It is just too easy to get fat and/ or fuck up on it. New peptides seems to be the current trend. It is a good idea to take advantage of it, before big brother make it illegal.


#18

I disagree personally, with concurrent use of fat burners and considerably lower than 10g/iu carbs, small pre-workout shots or ketogenic diets it is very effective.

What is true is that there is a steep but long learning curve - which i have not yet climbed still [nearly i think!:)] - where you need to learn how to use it specifically with your own body/diet/training regime so it can work for you with the least fat storage.


#19

Brook,
Any particular reason why you’re building for a ‘recovery’. Always thought the best time would be post-competing?

Now back to the purpose of the thread, that is producing consistent results. I’m trying to think of injectable class II’s to utilise whilst having a break from test. I’ve been trying to discover what class EQ fits into? Bill’s profile on mesomorphosis stated he wasn’t sure. Can you or anyone update me on this?


#20

[quote] Brook wrote:
But that means you could do the 2 week break with little to NO AAS needed. I have done it and it isn’t ‘painful’ at all. The first week you feel the same, the second week you feel normal -

And sorry to bug you again champ but what exactly do you mean by ‘painful’? And feeling ‘normal’?

Very interesting thread btw